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[Released] Pokémon Spotlight: OU - Volcanion

Discussion in 'Article Review' started by Spoovo The Pirate, Oct 28, 2016.

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  1. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    [​IMG]

    Introduction

    As the final Pokémon introduced in Generation 6, Volcanion certainly has high expectations to live up to. The 'new kid on the block' doesn't disappoint, sporting a unique Fire / Water typing, great firepower — if you'll mind the pun — and solid stats across the board aside from a middling base 70 Speed. What's better, it even has access to Water Absorb, enabling it to come in on a multitude of Water-type Pokémon and recover lost HP in the process. By having resistances to Fire, Bug, Ice, Fairy, and Steel, it makes for a solid defensive typing.

    However, Volcanion has its flaws. As mentioned earlier, its Speed is only 'okay', and its weaknesses to common types like Ground, Electric, and Rock, the latter of which gives it a weakness to Stealth Rock, really hinder it too. Nonetheless, Volcanion is a force to be reckoned with — underestimate it, and it'll erupt.

    Specially Offensive

    Volcanion @ Choice Specs / Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
    Modest nature
    - Steam Eruption
    - Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    - Sludge Wave
    - Hidden Power Grass / Earth Power​

    Volcanion's flagship set comes in the form of a simple hole puncher, hitting just enough Speed with its base 70 to outrun stall-based foes and then break through them with its powerful attacks.

    A Modest nature lets Volcanion make the most of its base 130 Special Attack and take chunks out of anything that doesn't resist. Having 216 Speed EVs let it outrun the likes of Crawdaunt, maximum Speed Azumarill, and any Adamant Tyranitar. The remaining EVs are dropped into HP to optimise Volcanion's bulk.

    Steam Eruption is Volcanion's signature move, and you won't find a set without it. Acting as a wonderful fusion of Hydro Pump and Scald, it features the power of the former and the utility of the latter, and it's all but guaranteed to irritate anything that isn't immune to it. Even Pokémon that resist or wall it stand a painful 30% chance of getting burned, which severely hampers their longevity. Just be careful about using it too recklessly, however, as it only has 8 PP.

    Slot 2 contains a Fire STAB in Fire Blast, which is the most popular choice, being just accurate enough to rely on in a pinch. The accuracy conscious and unlucky can consider Flamethrower instead if they don't mind the power drop. Another Fire STAB move to consider would be Overheat, as it hits even harder than Fire Blast but forces Volcanion to switch out after use.

    Slot 3 has Sludge Wave, which stops annoying Fairies like Clefable from switching in too often, and it doesn't force Volcanion to waste precious Steam Eruptions on them. Sludge Wave is chosen over Sludge Bomb because of its increased power, which is a wallbreaker's primary purpose. It also helps secure KOs on two common targets, Azumarill and Mega Altaria, both of which resist Volcanion's STAB moves.

    Lastly, Hidden Power Grass or Earth Power are the best choice for slot 4. Hidden Power Grass allows Volcanion to threaten Gastrodon and other Water-types that can easily switch in on either of Volcanion's STAB moves, while Earth Power hits opposing Volcanion and the occasional Tentacruel. The latter also eases prediction against the common Volcanion + Tyranitar core.

    Finally, the given items for this set are Choice Specs and Leftovers. Choice Specs boosts Volcanion's Special Attack to sky-high levels and gives it the chance to muscle through would-be checks, while Leftovers simply grants Volcanion some passive recovery, which is something all bulky Pokémon appreciate.
    Other Options

    Volcanion has a few more tricks up its sleeve worth mentioning. Choice Scarf patches up Volcanion's mediocre Speed to a maximum of 393. Type-resistant berries such as Shuca Berry can be used to help Volcanion lure in and remove a check, all while potentially bluffing Choice Specs. Similarly, Expert Belt can be used to boost the power of super effective hits while allowing Volcanion to switch moves. Life Orb allows a power boost while also allowing Volcanion to switch moves; however, it comes at the cost of 10% HP per hit.

    Protect can help scout for threats and Choice-locked foes, and it works well in tandem with Leftovers recovery. Solar Beam can be used with Power Herb for a one-turn nuke against a common switch-in. Hidden Power Ice is notable for hitting Dragon-types. Lastly, Rest + Sleep Talk can help mitigate Volcanion's lack of recovery; however, the strategy is unreliable.
    Checks and Counters

    Chansey is probably the strongest answer to Volcanion out there, as it takes any special hit with ease and can simply heal the damage off with Soft-Boiled, meaning there's little Volcanion can do to threaten it.

    Most bulky Dragon-types, particularly Latias, give Volcanion trouble by resisting both of its STAB moves. Volcanion has been known to run Hidden Power Ice almost purely for these pesky Dragons, but that means it has to sacrifice other coverage, and it will struggle to deal enough damage without Choice Specs. Mega Latias, for example, can set up Calm Minds against Volcanion, Recover off any damage, and KO it with Dragon Pulse. Physically offensive Dragons need to be wary of Steam Eruption's burn rate, however.

    Bulky Water-types in general are problems if Volcanion lacks Hidden Power Grass specifically for them. While most are wary of Steam Eruption, the likes of Slowking can switch in repeatedly thanks to Regenerator and force it out every time without too much worry. Gastrodon, Seismitoad, and the rare Jellicent all have the distinction of being able to switch into Steam Eruption without fear. It's also worth mentioning that Volcanion checks itself pretty solidly.​
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2016
  2. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Char limit, imma be short.
    AV and Rocky Helmet are downright ass. Remove it please. Mixed might go in OO cuz of it's 1 useful phys move- superpower. Wave over Bomb, specs hits to kill, not cripple. Blast b4 Thrower. Nix WAQuag. More detailed rant later.
     
  3. E.T.

    E.T. Random Slowpoke Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Volcanion acts as a wall breaker or a tank. It isn't sweeping with Speed that low and no way to boost its stats.

    I don't think there are any other moves that are a fusion of Hydro Pump and Scald. This segment should probably be more concise because it is a bit too long for simply defining Steam Eruption.

    I would merge these two paragraphs together. If you are going to compare accuracy, compare Flamethrower and Fire Blast. For Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb, Azumarill specifically should be mentioned because it is the main reason that the move is there. You say that several Hidden Powers are popular, but you only list two.

    I don't think physically defensive sets are relevant enough to mention. I don't think Rocky Helmet is ever used and for good reason. Assault Vest isn't very good either. Choice Scarf is okay. Air Balloon can probably have a very brief mention. Overheat and Toxic are okay, but the other stuff probably isn't notable enough to mention.


    I think it would be better to discuss bulky Water-types in general but mentioning Seismitoad and Gastrodon is okay. Water Absorb Quagsire should not be used in OU.
     
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  4. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Gotcha ET, I'll get things edited in sometime soon.

    On the Hidden Power thing, I only mentioned two because they're the most common ones. Didn't see much point in going beyond. The thing about Steam Eruption being the 'best fusion of Hydro Pump and Scald', I meant best possible, lol. But yeah, I'll tweak it. *nods*
     
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  5. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    OK, time for some legit constructive ranting! I don't really like the spread tbh as it is just the standard cookie-cutter spread. Change the nature to Modest. While E.T. mentioned it as a wallbreaker, I think the term Nuke works here just fine. The spread I use is picked from Draciel's RMT and it's 40 HP / 252 SAtk / 216 Spe And it scores by being able to outspeed Azumarill, Crawdaunt, BandTar, and all of the dumb walls iirc. It also outspeeds any other mon with 229 speed for that matter like 44 Espeedo Lando-T. Overheat pairs up well in the specs, that's my preferred ordering but that's up for arguments. Sludge Wave over Bomb, now this. We use specs to heavily damage or downright destroy the opposition. It hits stuff that the STABs won't hit nicely, notably Azumarill and Mega Altaria which both get OHKOd. I mean crippling via poisoning isn't anything a Specs mon should be doing. I mean burn or no burn, you go for the KOs. Hidden Power Grass is alright in that slot as it is.

    Not particularly sure if it should be a full set. I could see this going to OO as a lure set just for Chansey and Chansey only. While Tran and TTar get hit really bad, they still rekt by Steam. Shift to OO.

    I believe most of the others have been dealt with by E.T.. But hey not just these two do mention Scarf TTar. Also mention the likes of Thundurus and Mega Manectric, they all revenge kill in any occasion.

    Standard Latias doesn't CM. I mean CM Latias shouldn't be really used unless ofc it's the rare Mega Latias. Please do it something like "atias for example can counters any Volcanion while Mega Latias set up Calm Minds against Volcanion while it struggles to deal any worthwhile damage to them."

    ITEMS:- Remove AV and Rocky Helmet pleassssse.

    That's all I guess.
     
  6. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Alright Joy, I'll get onto those things.

    The only real reason I listed just two viable revenge killers is mostly because the world doesn't need to know each and every option. Just a couple that can do the job. Sure, Thundurus and Meganectric are also worthy choices, but they just weren't the first that came to mind lol.

    EDIT: And tidied. Looking any better?
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2016
  7. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    It's looks better alright. Make the nature modest only, idk that tyranitar reference can be tidied up a bit it seems as ttar might still outrun at times. I see no mention of Azu and MAltaria after sludge wave, they resist both the stabs. Same goes in C&C.
     
  8. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Gotcha. I'll get those added.
     
  9. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    "It also secures KOs on two common checks, Azumarill and Mega Altaria, who both resist its STAB moves." Seems more sensible here.
    I'll have E.T. lead with the approval and what not.
     
  10. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    when did tentacruel become relevant in ORAS OU? make that starmie or something

    random nitpicks: no lefties, no toxic, hp grass should be slashed with epower, psn coverage is huge. ctrl f every sludge bomb and make it sludge wave, except this:
    this is just wrong and you should remove it outright. just having a scizor doesnt entitle you to forgo any additional fairy answer in ur team, magnezone is literally a thing.
    remove air balloon, as well as resist the urge to mention flare blitz and explosion, just dont.
    do you even understand the concept of the move sleep talk? its use is LITERALLY so the user doesnt become helpless for two turns, are u kidding me. I read some of the things that were there before u changing them from the posts above and just lol. rocky helmet
    Anyway, the only thing i agree with you from the original post, out of the whole thing, is max max on volcanion because it ties with adamant loom bish etc, but that's just me and the other set with 212 speed is fine too i guess.
     
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  11. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    ...I'm gonna guess I caught you in a bad mood today. Your criticism is usually a bit more constructive.

    Anyway, onto addressing points. I listed Tentacruel instead of Starmie because I didn't want to imply that it was a good idea to switch a Volcanion into Starmie:

    4 SpA Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Seeing as even utility Starmie cleanly 2HKOes after Stealth Rock, I figured it wasn't wise. Also:

    # 34 - [​IMG] Starmie (5.55 %)
    # 35 - [​IMG] Conkeldurr (4.95 %)
    # 36 - [​IMG] Amoonguss (4.84 %)
    # 37 - [​IMG] Tentacruel (4.83 %)

    Tentacruel is four places behind Starmie. Remind me how it's irrelevant again?

    Move slashes: I'd argue that HP Grass is just as important as Sludge Wave, tbh. Otherwise Gastrodon and friends walk all over you. Earth Power is certainly less important, that I agree on, but both of the other two are very much needed imo.

    Scizor on teams: This was just an example of how one pokemon's presence can affect team building. Obviously if you have super effective coverage on one other 'mon, you're less likely to need it on your current one. The wording wasn't brilliant, I'll admit, but was it because it was Scizor of all things? If that's the case, it plays both ways. What if you're also packing Dugtrio, to revenge said Magnezone afterwards? It's a very woolly statement, imo.

    Sludge Bomb -> Sludge Wave: I probably did miss a couple. Duly noted.

    Flare Blitz and Explosion: They were just examples of what else is in the physical movepool. I even stated immediately afterwards that Superpower is the only move likely to see usage. A 'reasonable physical movepool containing Superpower and nothing else' isn't exactly reasonable, is it?

    Lastly, ResTalk: Yeah, I didn't word it brilliantly. Perhaps I'll add an 'almost', to let people know that it's 'almost' helpless. Losing two coverage slots, and only having a 33% chance of picking the move you want, is pretty helpless as far as I'm concerned.
     
  12. E.T.

    E.T. Random Slowpoke Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Starmie usually doesn't run Thunderbolt, but it is used sometimes. I think that Slowbro or Keldeo would probably be better examples than Tentacruel though. Sludge Wave is definitely more important than Hidden Power Grass because it allows you to hit Azumarill, Mega Altaria, and other Fairy-types harder and more reliably than with Steam Eruption or Fire Blast. Sludge Wave is also more important for the specs set because getting locked into HP Grass can create more problems if you predict incorrectly. I wasn't fond of the Scizor example either, so I'm okay with it being removed. For Flare Blitz and Explosion, I don't think that including them adds much if they aren't viable options. You could just state that Superpower can work against Chansey because of the base 110 Attack stat. I think the issue with describing Rest-Talk is the word "helpless" because even if your odds of doing what you want to do are low, having the ability to still bop them with the appropriate move wouldn't really be considered "helpless". However, describing Rest-Talk as being "unreliable" at times would be accurate. I would also be okay with Air Balloon being removed.

    I'd like to remind everyone that while feedback of these articles for review is desired and encouraged, said feedback should not contain hostile remarks. This goes for responses to feedback as well.
     
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  13. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Yeah, I'm perfectly okay with 'unreliable', as it's a nicer balance. As for things like Air Balloon, Flare Blitz etc, I wouldn't mind at least keeping them in? They add a bit more flavour at least.
     
  14. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Nah viability over flavour is way, way better. Weeding out any useless stuff, or anything 'used' less for that matter, and making it a bit more concise makes for a cleaner looking article. I have a few other things to say, would do so later.
     
  15. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    Overall usage is not the same as ranked usage. Ranked usage gives us a better idea of PO's OU.
    Using ranked stats:
    Landorus-Therian 26.6015 22751
    Excadrill 20.7354 17734
    Scizor 18.8166 16093
    Heatran 18.529 15847
    Clefable 16.8278 14392
    Garchomp 15.558 13306
    Talonflame 15.5346 13286
    Rotom-Wash 14.0578 12023 <---- Hydro Pump is beaten by Water Absorb
    Zapdos 13.133 11232
    Keldeo 12.8617 11000 <--- uses Scald
    Skarmory 12.7833 10933
    Tyranitar 12.3718 10581
    Chansey 12.3577 10569
    Charizard 9.84854 8423
    Dragonite 9.68251 8281
    Latios 9.63574 8241
    Lopunny 9.60534 8215
    Bisharp 9.07333 7760
    Manaphy 8.96927 7671 <--- Manaphy often uses Scald
    Latias 8.9681 7670
    Gengar 8.10637 6933
    Ferrothorn 7.71935 6602
    Thundurus 7.65855 6550
    Azumarill 7.57086 6475 <--- you mention Azumarill
    Tornadus-Therian 7.54279 6451
    Pinsir 7.33584 6274
    Sylveon 7.20605 6163
    Slowbro 6.93829 5934 <--- Slowbro uses Scald
    Gliscor 6.805 5820
    Starmie 6.74537 5769 <-- Here's Starmie
    Metagross 6.5618 5612
    Gardevoir 6.47177 5535
    Weavile 6.45072 5517
    Magnezone 6.05435 5178
    Breloom 5.97367 5109
    Amoonguss 5.88831 5036
    Venusaur 5.77607 4940
    Kyurem-Black 5.77022 4935
    Jirachi 5.58314 4775
    Medicham 5.43699 4650
    Gyarados 5.29083 4525
    Volcanion 5.16221 4415 <--- here's Volcanion
    Azelf 4.79975 4105
    Sableye 4.74713 4060
    Hydreigon 4.66996 3994
    Tentacruel 4.62319 3954 <--- and here's Tentacruel
    I'm not saying Tentacruel is completely irrelevant, but it isn't nearly as relevant as many other threats that are not noted instead in the introductory paragraph.

    I would recommend removing any mention of any specific playstyle or Pokémon, and focus on the large amount of Water-type moves that are used instead, whether you mention Scald by name or not.


    Furthermore, you mention that Volcanion's Water Absorb can stop Azumarill and other threats "in their tracks", but that's simply untrue. Choice Specs Volcanion, using the set you use in the OP, is almost always 2-hit after Rocks by Play Rough, and Superpower has a slim chance to OHKO after Rocks. Also, what "other threats" are stopped? It's too ambiguous, and shouldn't belong in the opening.

    Your introduction has a few other issues:
    You mention that its Speed is "middling" in the first paragraph, and then "okay" in the second. Which is it?
    You mention that it has good stats, except for its Speed, and then bring up the Speed again in the negatives. Would it not make more sense to seperate the negative from the positives, instead of bringing up the negative twice?
    You mention notable weaknesses of its types, but only bring up the positive of Water Absorb. What happened to its 4x Fire, Ice and Steel resistances, and its other resistances to Bug and Fairy?
    You also fail to mention the lack of PP that Steam Eruption has, even outside of the introduction.

    When you note that Earth Power is slashed on both the coverage slots, it might be worth combining the paragraphs for the coverage options. Additionally, if Sludge Wave is the first move recommended, why is Earth Power talked about first? Is Sludge Wave the preferred move for that slot or not? If so, it should get top billing there.

    I disagree with Joyverse, Overheat should not get 2nd billing. The -2 Special Attack almost forces a switch regardless of what comes in, despite the initial power boost. I'd leave it off the main set, and leave it as a potential option in the text below the set.

    "HP Grass hits Gastrodon, Seismitoad and other Water-immune..." drop the end of that sentence, every other Water-immune mon is mostly trash in OU. Mention Water-types in general, as it hits most harder than any other move, but drop the Water-immune bit.

    Steam Eruption / Fire Blast / Sludge Wave can 2HKO most standard OU Water-types on Choice Specs sets. Suicune, Slowking, Tentacruel, Alomomola and Vaporeon can avoid the 2HKO from those three moves, with Slowking able to withstand the 2HKO from both HP Grass and Earth Power too. All are lesser-used options for checks, but I feel like they should be mentioned by name in the checks and counters.

    Drop the Explosion and Flare Blitz mentions, and you should probably drop Superpower too. It requires far too much investment to make Superpower 2HKO Chansey, and you'd have to sacrifice the power of Choice Specs or the healing of Leftovers to do it, as Expert Belt or Life Orb would be required.

    That's all I can see at the moment. Sorry if I come across as harsh.

    p.s. LO Starmie can still 2HKO if it runs Psychic.
     
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  16. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    | 12 | Starmie | 11.473% |
    | 71 | Tentacruel | 1.679% |
    yes this is the smogon stats, not PO's, but they are way more reliable and come from 3 million battles as opposed to PO's 200 thousands. So yeah, tentacruel is irrelevant when you take into consideration the actual OU meta that is played the most. Tentacruel has no added value over starmie besides tspikes which is not important enough to be used over starmie which has a lot more utility and very important speed overall. Also fat starmie doesnt run tbolt anymore, you're a few metas behind.
    "gastrodon and friends" is just gastrodon and seismitoad which dont get much play in ORAS OU, gastrodon has a strong niche if anything but we're talking 1 pokemon that only works in 1 playstyle (gastro in balance) vs the ability to take on azumarill, mega altaria as well as the ability to ohko mega gardevoir and it being just a strong neutral move vs things like latis etc.
    that's exactly why you shouldnt even mention them to begin with, just because it gets the moves and they are high base power, doesnt mean they will be useful. There's no physical moveset, i hope you're not inspired by prof dnite. It's specs 4 special attacks or life orb with 3 special attacks and superpower, so mixed if not specs.

    edit: i dont even know why your Pokemon Of The Week is just Analysis 2.0, analysis was scrapped because of its poor quality like this to begin with, this is supposed to be a nice and short mention of Volcanion in which you say "hey look it's strong new, best set is spex 4 attacks but it can make use of 5 moves", i have no idea how u managed to screw it up, and no idea how u even came up with the idea of rocky helmet among other things, idc if you think this is too blunt or rude or whatever, i believe this is as constructive as it gets regardless of how it comes out. It just annoys me that this article is making this subforum head towards the same direction as Analysis even though ET and joyverse and the other contributors are trying their best to make it work.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
  17. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Likely because these PotW things are essentially just analyses. I'm really not sure why disparaging honest effort is seen as the done thing nowadays. What are we, Smogon?

    But yeah, I'll try and fix this up when I get back from work tonight.
     
  18. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    So, um, yeah that was what I was going to say but it sucks to be a leader who has a 256 character limit mobile phone. Thank you Oak, appreciated. Mentioning Scald might be OK. But mentioning the ability to switch into water moves is probably much better.

    Potential option in the text below it is. Usage of Overheat would probably heavily depend on a person's preferred style of play. While most would go for consistency, I'd rather drop a draco or in this case an overheat but since my opinions seems outweighed in this case then so be it.

    While PoTW are reminiscent of analyses, they are bit more concise. Also effort, honest or not, should be worth the effort. While we are not Smogon or anything, we'd still like to see the quality of work. Theorymoning random options while better options already exist, is something I'd consider a complete waste of time and effort. I'd play a tier rather than sit in front of a screen and think of 10 antimeta sets whereas I could have had used 2-3 sets, solid sets and seen what could be swapped out of the standard sets to make it stand out in the crowd while still being worth using. While this may or may not seem a tad too harsh (forgive me, my typing tone sux), what I am trying to say is this is probably what I expect of future article contributors when they are make such articles. You people, on the other hand are free to try whatever method you like .That though, doesn't mean I am not opposed to theorymoning in every minute part of any article. So that'll be something I'll be looking out in the future.
    But yeah, I am not against anyone who does those things. I'm just thinking of how to improve the article as a whole, that by extension means I'll be always looking out for my fellow contributors. So sit back, go over what I said, chill, contribute and repeat! :D

    Also...
    What he said, while I am being lenient on most, if not all of you dudes. I am just doing so cause we have only started this project, and it's pretty much still in it's infancy. In the future it might be not so.
     
  19. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Makes sense. I guess I'm just used to listing all the stuff that's at least somewhat viable, and weeding out the worst of it at a later date. Patience and quality expectations aren't as lenient here, so I'll just need a brief adjustment period. Shouldn't take long.
     
  20. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Okay, and this is updated. Acceptable quality, @Professor Oak and @Joyverse?

    I kept Superpower and the Air Balloon in because I believe they at least have some merit, but I can remove them if wanted. Everything else that wasn't needed is gone, far as I'm aware.
     
  21. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    get rid of both balloon because all it does is be broken quickly by any ground type that has coverage, which is basically everything, and it makes it sharply weaker and less able to break things which is supposed to do and also leftovers, also
    maybe doing some calcs before just looking at typings wouldnt hurt yeah?
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 140-165 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    (fireblast is same damage so lol, and sludge wave does even more, also yes, standard volcanion outspeeds standard rotom)
    this part is useless because every single pokemon (at least that isnt a set up pokemon) can be revenge killed.
    they are definitely unheard of, i assume this is the part where u had rocky helmet?
    suicune can only pp stall, any OU suicune cant touch volcanion. Tentacruel hates burns and can get epowered, and doesnt have reliable recovery, vaporeon is not a thing and should never be even mentioned. slowking is good though!
    "often it isn't enough to break them" is why you shouldnt mention it, did u take that from the smogon calc sets or something? i assume not because u would have calced that hp ice, just like steam eruption and fireblast, 2hko all dragons except dragonite. I wouldnt use hp ice just for dnite that is already scared of being burnt.
     
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  22. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Hey, Oak said I should add those guys in, so I did. I'm aware that their response to Volc is... limited in some cases, but I'm just doing what was asked of me.

    As for 'bulky and even physically defensive spreads', they certainly are heard of, and have nothing to do with the Rocky Helmet. I'ma go out on a limb here, and guess that you don't like being more creative with your EV spreads. Hell, your precious Smogon suggests it in the other options.

    HP Ice: I didn't word it brilliantly, but it is still true nonetheless. Volcanion does run HP Ice on occasion to help against Dragons.

    But yeah, I'll re-do the Rotom bit. While you're assuming Specs Volc vs Physically Defensive Rotom-W and nothing else (both Choice Scarf and Specially Defensive stand a pretty solid chance against it), it's not worded the best. I suffer from this quite a bit.
     
  23. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    I did mention that they were lesser-used options. If others feel that some of the things I said weren't for the best, then by all means consider the majority opinion.
     
  24. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    My only real issue with the majority option is that very few OU Water-types can take Volcanion on safely.

    Azumarill: Sludge Wave destroys it
    Keldeo: Secret Sword actually works against it here iirc, but Scarf should win assuming SR and proper prediction.
    Rotom-W: Very woolly, as stated above
    Slowbro: Can't switch in too well, with both Specs Sludge Wave and HP Grass 2HKOing. Same for Mega
    Starmie: Too frail to switch in safely, however it can hit back damn hard with Thunderbolt or Psychic (assuming offensive)
     
  25. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    In that case, mention Water-types (not by name) resisting STAB, but not many being able to withstand multiple hits, so they can only act as checks if they are faster. You can also include the Water-immune Pokémon (potentially by name) by saying that they lose to HP Grass. Then, you can either round up or start the paragraph with the Slowking mention (and maybe Jellicent, but its OU usage is poor) as they can avoid the 2HKO.

    If you can get that content into a decent paragraph, that ought to resolve that issue.
     
  26. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    this is why i have a problem with your post. you very clearly are unaware about what works and what doesnt, and what is used and what isnt. If you played more and you understood what is the point of rotom-w in OU, you wouldnt even say this quote. Rotom-w has absolutely no business being spdef or scarf in gen 6 ou because it goes against its main purpose in the tier.
    with all due respect to Oak, i'm almost certain he hasnt played ORAS OU competitively due to lack of interest, surely he has played it on occasion though, so just because he said something doesnt mean u should do it, i shouldnt need to explain to you why a pokemon that cant touch volcanion shouldnt be listed as a volcanion answer, it's just mind blowing to me that i have to tell u vaporeon should never be there, it's not good in ou, will never be good in ou, and it still cant beat volcanion, just because volcanion spams water and fire moves, doesnt mean you need to dig through 700 pokemon to find some random ass forgotten pokemon that can do that, this is like those people spamming solrock in early oras ubers because of primal groudon.
    here, ill teach you a bit about competitive pokemon: Pokemons have roles, you dont pick a pokemon in a team because it has certain types or stats, some pokemon can have more than one role, some do too but more often than not have just 1 role that stands out from the others, especially in a specific metagame. Volcanion is one of those pokemon, its best role is to wallbreak by nuking shit to death with an insanely high spatk w/ spex and very powerful stabs. It has decent natural bulk but it almost always comes off as irrelevant in a way that you dont use it for its defensive capabilities, u use it for its offensive ones, its bulk just means you can use it in bulky offense as well as standard offense. a physically defensive spread goes againist what volcanion's best asset is in every way possible, the tier has no use for a physically defensive volcanion that lacks reliable recovery, we have plenty of other options.
    Now i'll move on to the funny part "and guess that you don't like being more creative with your EV spreads". It's actually hilarious that you say that, because i'm aware of what works and what doesnt, and just because u can dump 252 evs in a stat, doesnt mean you should. Being creative is nice and all if you are starting a new gen and everything is unexplored. Guess what, this isnt the case even if volcanion is newer. Following your logic, you can say that about any pokemon and that will not make them more viable. Your job is not to invent sets on the go and suggest them here, you are not qualified to do so, people who suggest sets are supposed to do that when a set is tried and tested, and have a solid role or niche in the metagame. Alakazam gets magic guard, barrier and recover!!! sounds like it's unbeatable omg! why isnt everyone using that? because phys defensive volcanion has no niche in the metagame, that's why.
    Dont be creative for the sake of being creative and pull out random sets out of your ass, ive read enough of your articles to know for a fact that you dont even try most of what you say, you just scroll down the movepools of pokemons and note down all the "viable" moves and just mention them here, because if you tested them vs experienced players u would find out they are ridiculous.
    are u blind? u completely disregarded my answer.
    i just read smogon's analysis, and i can safely say that the defensive spread is in fact, garbage, that volcanion only beats specific things like azumarill and it's already mentioned in the analysis itself that it's a pretty bad option, u dont need to mention that in a pokemon of the week. A pokemon without recovery has no reason to be used defensively unless it has other utilities, go look at all pokemon that are used defensively in any tier, anything that is purely defensive either has some form of recovery (chansey skarm amoonguss slowbro latis gliscor sableye scizor talon zapdos starmie) or have some utility like stealth rocks (ferrothorn which has leech too, heatran, lando, garchomp, even tenta has tspikes + spin), while volcanion has nothing, it sits there, stomachs a hit and does nothing to the opponent as they switch out because it's too weak to do anything without an offensive set. The smogon analysis suggests haze to beat belly azu, while standard offensive volcanion can easily switch in and sludgewave while outspeeding to take it out.
    as for your 2nd post, not entirely sure which pokemon in the keldeo vs volcanion scenario is scarf, since scarf volc is a gimmick at best, And slowbro can always switch in since it can pivot out to scout for the move and use regen to get back a chunk of hp.
     
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  27. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Dude, I've been playing competitively for ten years, and still do. Just because I don't do things the exact way you want, doesn't mean I'm doing it wrong. It's called a METAgame for a reason. It's multifaceted.

    The most used set for a Pokémon is rarely the only viable one, and sometimes not even the best one. It's all down to what competitive niche it fills in. It's why Specially defensive was Camerupt's leading set in gen 5 NU. It's why Heatran opts for defensive sets more often, despite packing Volcanion's power.

    What you don't seem to understand, is that lesser used sets are often just as useful, just in different situations. Plus, you're shining over the contents of an 'Other Options' sections. Surely that, if anything, tells you that there's more gimmicky, underused stuff in there.
     
  28. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    There, there people. This thread reeks of hostility a tad too much. I am going to snap pretty soon if this keeps continuing. This is my final warning.
    Yeah, Spoovo, while you have been playing for 10 years, call me dumb or anything else but the last time I saw you play in PO was you fighting Isa in the GSC Ubers tier lol. Also, I repeat what I had said before. while this is reminiscent of analyses, this is however also an article that showcases the "cream of the crop" set or sets for that matter. And without any doubt, the specs set gets the crown. Trying to mention sets of Pokemon from other tiers or as a matter of fact, another generation would weaken your argument to an extent. With all that said, I am going to re-read the OP yet again and try to see what can be done of it. While Gengar seems to be harsh on you, trust me you shouldn't be worrying about that, I can see the 'constructive' in his "constructive critcism" and you should too. Oak on the other hand, he too has occasionally played OU and he'd know a thing or two (see the Overheat argument) but there will be times when more experienced players will come in to outweigh the other's opinions and it goes on. If we hadn't wished to help you, be it harsh or, be it mild and mellow, we wouldn't have taken our time to make a post here. Keep that in mind.


    OK, so here's my 2 cents after all the others have ranted, Note that some of my opinions might be repeated from any above posts.
    Uh? This sentence doesn't make sense. I'd rather do it like, "What's better, it even has access to Water Absorb, making it able to come in on a multitude of Water type Pokemon and gain off bits of lost HP in the process."

    Hmm, the best suggestion here is we move it to OO. Tentacruel may or may not be mentioned here but I am neutral on Tenta.

    Leftovers I'd say no to, but Life Orb and/or Expert Belt are worthy enough. Volcan can potentially bluff a specs while it is holding an EBelt.

    232 HP / 176 Def / 4 SpD / 96 Spe with a Bold nature...
    KEK, yeah I got it off Smogon, but even the superior Smogon dex mentions it's unreliable thanks to lack of reliable recovery and SR weakness. It only notably beats Azu, and if haze is run, potentially beat belly drum boi azu as well. But that is the only threat mentioned, at 200 speed (96 EVs) I can't think of any other notable offensive threat that is slower than this benchmark.

    It's worth mentioning here that even with a scarf it can be reliably revenge killed by Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Manectric both.

    Neutral on Tenta as said above, no to Vaporeon as it's not worth using in OU. Period. AV Slowking is OK is OU so that works, Gastrodon has seen a rise is usage thanks to Volcanion, check. Jellicent also has the niche of countering Keldeo (expect CM, it's a PP stallfest, Wisping any other variant tho just means Jelly wins) so yeah Jelly could work as well.

    Aside from Physically Def. Scarf is the only other notable set. I have found using SpDef Rotom-W pretty pointless in many occasions. Phys. Def counters Talonflame, Sand Rush Exca, Mamoswine, Azu, and Lando-T and that's how it has kept its placed in the food chain. Just food for thought.
     
  29. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Yeah, that's fair enough. I only really added Vaporeon because it seemed a better choice than Alomomola, who obviously wouldn't last long against a Volcanion. Vappy at least stands a good chance, with great special bulk and common access to Toxic.

    HP Ice works in OO for me. It isn't the most common of choices, but is at least viable.

    With the phrase mentioning alternate EV spreads, I'm simply saying that they're at least heard of. Not ideal in most cases, but I rather like physically defensive myself, as it still packs enough power even without investment, and can tank a surprising amount of hits.

    I'm surprised you're iffy with the Water Absorb sentence? It essentially is a 'somewhat reliable form of recovery', seeing how often Water moves are thrown around. But it would make more sense if I reworded it so that it offset Stealth Rock damage, as that's what it'll be doing most often.

    Rotom... I know it's not a brilliant answer, but it's the closest one there is among Electric-types. Want it just removed completely?

    Lastly, the reason you wouldn't have seen me on the server much is because I forgot the password for my main account lol, so I tend to use alts. :D
     
  30. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Not exactly iffy, but I think my wording works better. That is because I am a fooking tyrant overlord it seems a bit coherent and seems to fit to the topic well.

    I am waiting for Finch to get over with his classes and get ready with his walls of text on a few parts. I DID mention asking for help in OO and the C&C sections. If he does provide his input then I'll take that as the first choice.
     
  31. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    That's fair enough. I've reworded Water Absorb, so that should be fine.

    The jury still seems out on the Leftovers. Some are fine with it, some hate it, and some want LO instead. Far as I've seen, you're the only one wanting LO/Expert Belt in. I personally don't see these two garnering any more than an OO mention, despite the bluff, but hey.

    EDIT: Oh also, I've been thinking about a synergy section. Thoughts?
     
  32. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Neutral on your synergy/team options section.
    As for LO/EBelt, they are better off in OO as I did reply after quoting the OO part. If you didn't get that before.
    e: I still think that my line commenting on water absorb is dabess.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  33. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    Your Water-types section mentions Keldeo as a potential switch in / check for Volcarona... which it simply isn't:
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 161-190 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 161-190 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 187-220 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    and HP Grass exists

    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 178-210 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    I'd recommend its removal.

    As for wording of sentences and the like, unless the content requires massive changes that are not mostly grammatical, it may be worth waiting until the article is in GP for those changes.

    Stating that Water Absorb allows more switch-ins in the opening, similar to how Joyverse pointed out above, would be advantageous.

    As for Rotom, unless others feel like mentioning that offensive sets can revenge with a faster Electric-type move, it probably would be best to remove it.

    Finally, whilst gengar's wording was a little harsh, I do agree with the sentiment he tried to put across in his post. The focus of our articles should be on the best options that are common and work well in the metagame. Your mention of Heatran's defensive set falls flat due to Heatran's superior defensive typing and better base HP and Special Defense stats.
     
  34. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Yeah, you've a fair point there Oak. I just personally see it as a superior Special powerhouse than a wally... thing. But hey, that's just opinion.

    I must've made a mistake somewhere when I calc'd Keldeo. I'll get him edited out soon.

    Also, I know Gengar's just trying to help, but I'm just less agreeable in the way he's trying it lol. Thanks again.
     
  35. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    In the Other Options, note that if you're opting to use Leftovers over Specs, you could use Protect over the lesser necessary of the two coverage moves (depends on the team) to scout for things like Scarf Lando-T, Scarf Garchomp, etc. and protect against opposing HJK (Mega Lop, Mega Medi, etc.) - it's a very nice tech that comes in handy a fair amount of time and it helps give you Leftover recovery so that using it for defensive counterplay (not something you rely upon, but can situationally check Keld, Sciz, etc. still).

    Additionally, Solarbeam + Power Herb is at least worthy of an OO mention due to the fact that it nails all the common water type switch-ins (Rotom-W, Keldeo, Manaphy, Starmie, etc.) and it bluffs choice/other things. Shuca Berry (esp w/ HP Ice) is noteworthy and Flame Charge (also w/ Shuca, but alternatively w/ LO, Wacan, or even PH+Beam) is a 'viable' set that shouldn't get its own set, but should get a mention in the OO. Expert Belt might be cool to add in, as well.
     
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  36. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Solar Beam was originally listed in here, and argued against. Admittedly, I didn't add the Power Herb, but anyone with a brain stem would know that it was implied.

    Protect is certainly a worthwhile investment; I'll get that added. Shuca and Flame Charge I like, but others might not, and giving Expert Belt a proper mention is certainly doable. I'll get this done tomorrow, because tomorrow.
     
  37. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    PH+Beam I like, bodies grass types. Though mentioning Power Herb has to be made sure of. Protect works too. LO/EBelt I agreed to both. Though Shuca, Wacan and even Charti is worthy of a mention. Kinda iffy on Flame Charge even now. :c
     
  38. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Maybe reduce the mention to 'type resistant berries such as the Shuca are useful, potentially turning Volcanion into a lure'? I'm down for that or something similar.
     
  39. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Yup, that would work.
     
  40. E.T.

    E.T. Random Slowpoke Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I don't think Mega Altaria should be mentioned here due to Sludge Wave. Latios or Dragonite would probably be better examples. Alternatively, you could just talk about Latias.
    This part can just be omitted. At the end of the bulky Water-types section, you can mention that Rotom-W can switch in and force Volcanion out with Volt Switch, but that its switch-in opportunities are limited by its lack of recovery. I don't think Thunderbolt is common enough to be worth mentioning.
    I don't think this part is needed either. Since Volcanion is trying to wallbreak, the fact that it is easier to revenge kill than faster threats isn't much of a weakness, and revenge killing is usually an unreliable way to counter stuff because the threat can usually just switch out and come back in later. You've also mentioned its Speed already in the introduction, and that is probably all that is needed.

    The article is starting to come together, and I think we will be ready for grammar soon unless anyone sees anything else that needs to be added or changed.
     
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