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Misdreavus Suspect Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LC' started by fitzy, Aug 4, 2014.

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  1. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    So we gave people time to see what else they would like suspected and nothing was suggested.

    Discuss the possibility of Misdreavus being banned from the XY LC tier.

    Use this thread to discuss both Misdreavus's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets they can use, possible partners & team support, and potential checks & counters. State your opinion on whether you think they should be banned or if it should stay in the Little Cup meta.

    All opinions are valid and discussion amongst players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your judgment is backed with sound reasoning and validation coming from experience having played with / against Misdreavus in the tier. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken."

    Theorymon is not valid and may result in an infraction. Please read the guidelines before posting. Happy posting!
     
  2. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    To start this off I'm just going to quote myself from the Smogon suspect because we have the same metagame and my thoughts haven't changed:


    I feel like people talking about how Misdreavus can use its bulk to shrug off attacks and sweep are off point. I very rarely found it was able to Nasty Plot up and then run through teams. Knock off has too much presence in this metagame for it to set up on a lot of things and then revenge killers like Choice Scarf Pawniard or Fletchling are very popular to handle it. What makes Misdreavus a cut above the rest is how consistent it can pull of it's role.

    Let's just take a look at all viable Misdreavus moves:
    Substititue
    Nasty Plot
    Psychic
    HP fighting
    Shadowball
    Dazzling Gleam
    Taunt
    Destiny Bond
    Memento
    Will-o-Wisp

    All this from a Pokemon with decent typing, amazing stats and can run Eviolite and Berry Juice equally as well. I found myself a lot of the time leading with Misdreavus because it could spread burns early on and had no very bad matchups in turn one .

    Is it broken? I don't think so. Well built teams are going to find a way to beat it thanks a lot due to the Knock Off weakness, vulnerability to powerful Scarf Pokemon and how the right bulky Normal Types (Porygon,Lickitung,Possibly Munchlax) are great switch ins to it.

    It is making LC Less fun? Maybe. Misdreavus is a cut above the rest and there is honestly no reason you shouldn't use Misdreavus if your running a Standard team (IE not weather based or Trick Room) and this is a problem but that is LC for you. Things are always going to better than others and I don't think we should try to change that unless you have to go to silly measures like previous suspects (think Goomy because of Tangela) to be able to handle it.
    switch ins to it.
     
  3. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    Alright so before this turns into one of those things where everyone repeats what everyone else said about misdreavus lets get the obvious positives and negatives out of the way.
    Pros: Fantastic stats all around and the movepool to complement it. It has the power to wall break with nasty plot (or calm mind if that's what you're into), support the team with numerous moves including but not limited to: Heal bell, t-wave, WoW, taunt and memento, or run a choice set to cripple its counters and revenge kill /wall break. Its got concise offensive coverage to hit what it needs to and with the ghost buff it gets all the better.

    Negatives: Being knock off and pursuit weak sucks and we all know it. Also being the best poke in the meta game (I DARE ONE OF YOU TO ARGUE THIS) is a double-edged sword since now the entire metagame has evolved around it and has quite a few ways to counter/check it. It can't break through many normal types and dark types (usually) have an easy time with it. Lack of reliable recovery (pain split is eh) also makes it prone to being worn down and eventually killed.

    Theres a pretty good chance I missed something here but that's just an outline of the pluses and minuses to using it. Although any standard team, imo, has little to no reason to not run misdreavus because of how versatile it is and how little team support (if any) is required. I wouldn't quite call it broken but I would call it centralizing and making LC a bit less fun.

    Ban it~
     
    RudeStyle likes this.
  4. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    I don't think a lack of reliable recovery is that much of a downside on any of the offensive Missy sets. Bulky/Support would KILL for Recover. I do find Missy to be broken though. I have never had much issue dealing with Normal's or Dark's with NP Missy, but the Scarf set definitely has its problems with them (Trick cripple is fantastic as most teams don't carry more than one of these). Dark types are not reliable answers and Missy can break a large portion of the walls in the tier with its Nasty Plot sets. Access to WoW when using Eviolite is also a HUGE bonus allowing Missy to avoid Sucker's and cripple physical attackers that want to switch into it and hit it with SE damage.

    The scariest thing about Missy is how threatening it is with every single one of its sets. It isn't a situations where Set A is obvious inferior to B, or Set A is just scarier than B. Missy in general is just not something you want to see in the team preview. Whether it be Scarf, Specs, Eviolite, NP(CM), Bulky, or even Support Missy. The stats and typing behind it just make a pain to deal with. Missy just doesn't have enough reliable answers in LC
     
  5. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Does it run over a team though?

    You say it's too much to handle, but I don't think beating one mon, then being vulnerable to getting revenged = too much to handle.

    Stunky / Munch / Licki / Houndour / Pawn still can hold there own. I know there are more, but it's just a quick list.

    Talk about how Missy does vs Offensive or vs Defensive teams. How much impact does it have?
     
  6. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Being able to be revenged =/= not broken. Every pokemon in the game can be revenge-killed by something. Also, being unable to run through a whole team is also not a criteria for not banning. Otherwise Mega Hera would have never been banned from UU and Genesect would still be making OU hell to play.

    Now, being able to guarantee a kill or otherwise severe dent in an opposing team nearly every time it is brought in (assuming the user isn't a moron) is arguably banworthy, and Misdreavus's offensive sets do that exceptionally well. Mis has the ability to gain literally perfect coverage from 2 moves, one of which is STAB, and then fill the rest of its moveslot with boosts like NP or CM, extra coverage options like Psychic or a Thunderbolt for whatever reason, or any other solid move like status (WoW is particularly nasty) or sub.

    And, to reiterate what Celebi said, it isn't one of those pokemon that has one potentially broken set and a bunch of other viable but inferior sets. Pretty much every set you'll see it using is viable, powerful, and arguably broken. Like Murkrow before it (and I'm betting Gligar and Tangela if they ever got the chance), it's got too many sets that are all too good to be staying in LC.

    And for those saying that the popularity of Knock Off keeps it in check, this is wrong on several fronts. Stealth Rocks are ridiculously popular in NU, that didn't stop Moltres nor Tornadus nor Braviary from being broken (and it won't stop Delphox). Also, Misdreavus outspeeds and either burns or KOs most Knock Off users anyway.
     
  7. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I'm also in favour of banning Missy, as it is a massive versatile threat that can also cripple or break through many of its counters without substantially compromising any of its utility. Choice sets are arguably the least broken imo, however they're worth mentioning for the fact that Trick can be used to cripple any of Missy's defensive checks, while scarf is a potent revenge killer. Will-o-Wisp can be used to cripple the majority of its checks as well, while still slotting in nicely on offensive variants. Combine that with its considerable power which can be further bolstered by Nasty Plot (or CM, but I've never seen much reason to use it over NP) and the fact that it outspeeds almost all non-scarfed pokemon in the tier and I think it's too much.

    The omnipresence of Knock off has an interesting relationship with Misdreavus. Sure it means it gets much less opportunity to go to work than it otherwise would, but at the same time, practically nothing with knock off is comfortable switching in on misdreavus, as it can severely damage all Knock off abusers or cripple them with Will-o-wisp. This is especially notable when you consider that it outspeeds any would-be check unless it has a scarf.

    Idk, this is probably a shit post, but I felt like discussing and it can't hurt to share my thoughts, but the gist of it is that I think the fact that Missy can pose a massive threat while simultaneously being able to cripple its checks means that is broken and hence worthy of a ban
     
  8. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Well, this suspect is a bit of deja vu or w.e its called.

    In any case, im pretty sure everyone would agree missy isnt unstopable, and has many checks and 'counters' (as much as you can counter a set up sweeper)

    However, i think the pro ban arguement would be more around how centralizing it is. As it creates a '19 speed or bust' scenario for most other offensive pokemon. Back in mid BW 19 speed was a big perk, and 17 and stuff speeders were much more common so speed tiers were more diverse and spread out.

    That aside, missy also centralizes the ghost type pokemon role, whereas if it is banned suddenly at least three pokemon become all very viable. Firstly, you have ghastly as the offensive ghost of the tier, next you have frillish and duskull each having perks (duskull has better defenses, levitate etc while frillish has recover and a double edged water typing) and even things like golett and phantump. This creates not only a greater diversity in pokemon seen in the tier as ghost types, but as checks to ghost types and offensive pokemon in general as the 19 speed tier is no longer so critical and looming. The likes of houndour, offensive mienfoo, drillbur, larvesta, mincinno, anorithe are suddenly much more niche.

    Ohh yeah, as others have said, while it is checkable that can be especially hard due to the omnipresence of knock off this gen due to it's viability as an offensive coverage move, and given the fact that many of it's would be checks are often switch ins to knock off users (chinchou, foongus etc) that makes them even weaker as checks, also, the large majority of checks will either be taken down in the process of checking missy, or be severly crippled by the encounter as missy often takes several hits to bring down while boosted shadow balls or w/e arent something to take lightly. Odds are if you can retaliate for an OHKO on missy it can hit you for an OHKO in return (pawniard, houndour etc)

    Edit: as for what artemisa said, houndour and pawniard are in a prediction game out of their favour if misdrevous runs sub, which i think it often does, while munch and licki are potentially set up fodder (depending on if munch has whirlwind, and if missy is the last mon, runs taunt etc and if licki has knock off or not) though i agree stunky is a challenge for missy, it is not commonly seen and struggles with any other pokemon in the metagame.

    Edit2: as for how it fares against offensive or defensive teams, it can either be a chip off the shoulder of an offensive team as they can revenge it quickly, or it can be a massive pain in the ass if it gets a sub up. Defensive teams are more likely to struggle due to missy's tendency to run nasty plot and must often run and rely on a dedicated offensivish check (i.e. a scarfer, houndour, pawniard) or suckerpuncher.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
  9. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Is Misdreavus broken? No, I don't think it is. Bulky Normal types like Porygon, Lickitung and Munchlax all make good checks to it. Before boosting it's often quite weak, and as with most Ghosts has to use weak STABs. However, I would still like to see it get banned. The fact is that it's so easy to fit on your team - it can be a spinblocker, a special sweeper, a revenge killer, a wall and a wallbreaker. And as a result of that it has ridiculously high usage, which makes the all the teams a bit samey, and while it's not as bad as early XY LC where pretty much every team was Mienfoo/ Misdreavus/ Murkrow/ Chinchou/ filler/ filler, I don't still don't think it's healthy. Because it's so good at what it does, I don't think one particular Pokémon will fill its shoes - I think if people want an offensive Ghost they'll use Gastly, if they want a defensive one they'll go with Pumpkaboo.

    TL;DR - Misdreavus isn't broken, but I think LC will be better without it.
     
  10. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Generic teams will be found in every meta/tier, no matter how frequent they are.

    Offensive teams pressure Missy w/ hard hits and with scarf pawn and knock off everywhere, but be more specific on how they still suffer w/ Missy on the team.

    Also someone needs to be even more specific on how defensive teams suffer.

    Trakyan touched a bit on it, but it needs better reasoning.

    You guys aren't giving the meta that much credit. There are alot of ways to be diverse in this current tier, maybe people will find out after the outcome of this suspect.

    I'd like to see a little bit more discussion on this.
     
  11. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Ok, more elaborations it is.

    Yes, generic teams are found in all tiers, but the issue with missy is that is it the jack of all trade for ghost types, it is fast, bulky and powerful which limits the usage of all other ghosts. Now this isnt like, say, chinchou where the other water types arent used as much, that's just due to poor typing/stats etc for the most part (I.e. they wouldnt receive usage even if chinchou was gone, sorry guy but mudkip sucks) (maybe slowpoke is the only thing that suffers, but regen spam isnt better than having chinchou dominate), because the other ghost types are viable in their own right when missy is gone, frillish is bulky and has recovery, and decent typing to take on at least part of the special and physical attackers in the tier (plus spinblock), while ghastly takes on the roll of offensive ghost, duskull is the best option for physically defensive ghost (which is a bigger niche now due to prominence of knock off on fighting types, im not sure frillish can take them on). It's just overcentralizing for it's type, as well as for the metagame since you need to include 2/3 ways to check it per team (through the match, one or more checks will be weakened, and missy can often power through one check)

    Now, offensive teams can pressure missy, sure, but not everything on an offensive team can pressure missy (unless said team is poorly built and in doing so is extremely weak to just about anything else) so missy will have a switch in/turn to sub etc. Now that missy has that, not much on an offensive team can actually switch in to missy one or more times. That is to say, offensive teams can put on the pressure, but cant take it in return.

    As for how defensive teams cope?
    Well that varies, imo. Pokemon like lickitung/porygon arent used very often, and for good reason imo, they provide a switch in for mienfoo, and then must switch out which lets mienfoo spam knock off on their team, that aside with the prominence of knock off these checks are much easier to break. Also, any lickitung not running knock off (i.e running d tail, toxic, body slam) is set up fodder for misdrevous rather than a check it fears, same with porygons not running shadowball (ice beam, t bolt, etc).
    If the teams don't run bulky normals? (which is a valid choice, given the abundance of rock, steel and fighting types which threaten them or use them to set hazards)
    they could be running one momentum grabber/stallbreaker for opposing stall like abra, houndour, a scarfer etc. Sure these are options but none can really switch in more than once, if that (most scarfers dont really threaten missy so much as to stop a sweep, weaken it, maybe ;i.e. magnemite or chinchou). The other option is to stay in and just batter it with (most likely weak, given its a defensive/stall team) attacks (i.e. giga drains, gyro balls/rock blasts/moon blasts etc) while it sets up/starts sweeping until you KO it. The problem being is you tend to lose a pokemon and have another severely weakened in this process, if not worse.
     
  12. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Fitzy and me talked it over and Missy will now be banned from XY LC.

    We will not do anymore suspects until ORAS, which shouldn't be done.
     
    confide likes this.
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