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Suspect Discussion: Murkrow and Meditite

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LC' started by Mylo Xyloto, May 22, 2014.

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  1. Mylo Xyloto

    Mylo Xyloto if your world falls apart, i'd start a riot

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    Mylo Xyloto
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Murkrow and/or Meditite being banned from the XY LC tier.

    Use this thread to discuss both Murkrow's and Meditite's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets they can use, possible partners & team support, and potential checks & counters. State your opinion on whether you think they should be banned or if it should stay in the Little Cup meta.

    All opinions are valid and discussion amongst players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your judgment is backed with sound reasoning and validation coming from experience having played with / against Murkrow and/or Meditite in the tier. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken."

    Theorymon is not valid and may result in an infraction. Please read the guidelines before posting. Happy posting!​
     
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  2. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Meditite
    Well, I don't exactly know why this took so long to happen, but Meditite is a complete monster in LC. Hitting a decent Speed of 16 (15 with Adamant) and a fantastic 26 Attack (28 Adamant) Meditite threatens a huge majority of the Meta. Dual Priority in Fake Out and Bullet Punch can effectively deal with sashes, pick off weaker mons, and mons with lower defenses. While Eviolite it easily the most preferred item, LO adds an incredible amount of power while sacrificing what would be acceptable defenses with Eviolite. This thing literally has like 3 safe switch ins being Honedge, Slowpoke, and Snubbull. Vullaby has a chance to be 2hko'd and is 2hko'd by the LO variant. (The 196/236 +Def Vullaby is a different story. Still loses to LO HJK/Thunderpunch)

    Drain Punch helps with survivability (I sometimes use HJK on the LO variant) and Zen Headbutt is typically the preferred last move. Poison Jab can be used with the LO Variant to beat Snubbull 100% of the time.
    -1 196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Poison Jab vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Snubbull: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Jolly)
    The LO set can also bypass Slowpoke
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 200 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 16-21 (57.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Meditite's STAB coverage is fantastic as it hits nearly everything in the Meta for neutral damage. Ghosts can't switch in freely fearing Zen Headbutt, and Darks can't switch in fearing a Fighting STAB move.

    A few partners I've been using in conjunction with Meditite are Vullaby, Pawniard, Scraggy, and Honedge. They help deal with the Ghosts and Psychic types [namely Slowpoke and to a lesser extent Misdreavous] that Meditite has trouble with. After Knocking Off Eviolite dealing with them becomes significantly easier, even with Meditite. Sticky Web support is also fantastic because 16 Speed is not blistering fast, and Toxic Spikes has proved helpful by wearing down opposing walls. Defog/Rapin Spin isn't incredibly popular in LC so hazards typically stay the match.
    A bit on the gimmicky side, but Venonat is a great partner to pass Speed to. With the set
    Venonat (F) @ Eviolite
    Level: 5
    Trait: Compoundeyes
    EVs: 200 HP / 200 Def / 76 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Agility
    - Baton Pass
    - Sleep Powder
    - Substitute
    And a LO Meditite, this thing quickly says GG to teams mid-late game.

    TLDR Even with a slight case of 4MSS (Fighting STAB, Psychic STAB, Fake Out, Bullet Punch, Thunderpunch, and Poison Jab), Meditite effectively has 1 safe switch in, Honedge, outside of this Meditite can beat all of the aforementioned Pokemon with a slight change in set without missing out on much. Eviolite being the most common and LO being the most destructive you have to predict or outspeed in order to beat it. Simple as that.

    Murkrow will come later.
     
  3. Yagura

    Yagura

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    A lot of people have been waiting for this suspect including myself, and I wish that this suspect discussion will actually have some spark of life unlike the previous ones because it will determine the destiny of two important Pokémon that had and are still having a huge impact in the metagame. Without any further delay I will write out my opinion about these two Pokémon:


    [​IMG]

    Murkrow is definitely one of the best offensive Pokémon in the metagame, it has decent abilities accompanied with great Attack and Speed stats and a decent Special Attack stat along with a wide moveset made Murkrow a really unpredictable Pokémon that made teambuilding centralizing over it to check it, its unpredictability incarnates in its totally different sets that it can run effectively, the first set is the Life Orb, this set makes Murkrow OHKO/2HKO most of the game with its Speed that hits 19 and its STAB moves in the devastating Brave Bird, the priority move Sucker Punch that lets it deal with its potential checks like Scarf Magnemite and Chinchou and that makes it really hard and even impossible to revenge kill, and some coverage moves like Heat Wave that deals with Steel-type Pokémon like Pawniard and Ferroseed; the problem with this set is that the person facing Murkrow predicts its move but he doesn't switch because he doesn't to waste one of his Pokémon since Murkrow doesn't have real switch-ins except the bulky Chinchou set. The second set is the set that benefits from its ability Prankster: Murkrow has various support options to chose like Thunder Wave, Featherdance, Taunt, Substitute, Calm Mind, Tailwind... these support moves cripple the majority of Pokémon that check the Life Orb set. Without much to say.

    I think you got my point about Murkrow already, it's unpredictable and unhealthy for the metagame so it should be banned.



    [​IMG]

    Meditite has an excellent offensive typing that makes its STAB attacks feared and a wide moveset which makes it a Pokémon that doesn't have a complete counter since it has a coverage move for almost every Pokémon in the tier (Poison Jab deals with Spritzee, Thunder Punch with Slowpoke, Fire Punch with Honedge...), its moveset that consists of STAB attacks with great coverage, priority moves in Fake Out and Bullet Punch, and great coverage moves in the elemental punches, Rock Slide, Poison Jab.. What makes Meditite a huge threat in LC is its ability Pure Power that doubles its Attack stat and makes it hit an enormous 28 Attack stat, and if it's holding an Eviolite it gets enough Defenses to avoid most of the OHKOs from its "counters" but without an Eviolite Meditite becomes really frail, and because of its average Speed stat revenge killing it become easy. But, what makes Meditite less dangerous in this generation are two things: First of all, the introduction of the Fairy-type, that made the Meditate Pokémon weak to one more additional type that resists its Fighting STAB moves, but even with Bullet Punch and Poison Jab it doesn't deal well with the Fairy Pokémon and they can hit it back with a Super effective STAB move that knocks it down as long as Meditite already received some damage (even though people rarely use Fairy-type Pokémon early game), here are some calcs that prove my point:
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Poison Jab vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 14-18 (51.8 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 14-20 (66.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Snubbull: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    196+ Atk Snubbull Play Rough vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Meditite: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    The second thing is: The introduction of Fletchling; Fletchling has access to the ability Gale Wings that gives a +1 priority to Flying-type moves that are Super effective against Meditite, and it can OHKO it with an increased priority Acrobatics.

    But, even though Meditite has a wide moveset that gives it some excellent coverage accompanied with an ability that doubles its Attack stat, it still has an average bulk and speed that makes it mangeable and easy to be revenge killed and (even though it's not that much of an argument) it's entertaining to use, so in my opinion Meditite should not be banned.
     
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  4. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    Not sure if I should wait til I get on my laptop or just type a text wall now...

    Murkrow is the epitome of offense. So many sets to run to run it's ridiculous. Need a scout? SubRoost. Need a wall breaker? LO. Need a revenge killer? Scarf. The list gos on and on and I'm not feeling up to the challenge of listing the sets. As for checks and counters...they happen to be pretty limited. rest talk ChinChou is most people's go to if they feel murkrow weak but upon
    getting knocked off... its 2HKOd (iirc) by LO krows dark pulse. Archen is in the same boat. Tirtouga can be a pretty good check but is easily worn down and prone to HP grasses. Lickitung can actually take marks hits (don't remember LO though) so it is more or less the only reliable counter to almost all sets.

    Ban it.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
  5. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    Murkrow, I agree, should be banned because of its versatility and the fact that it has arguably has no clear check/counter. Meditite on the other hand, while it is an incredibly strong pokemon in the lc meta, does have its counters. For example, Honedge completely walls every Meditite set possible ( Meditite can run fire punch, but hat set is sitting at 1.12 % usage right now). Gen 6 also blessed us with more Meditite checks, including: fairy snubbull and gale wings fletchling. My response: ban murk, keep meditite.
     
  6. Endeavour

    Endeavour Member

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    I think Murkrow is a fairly obvious no questions asked ban. As stated above, the versatility of its moveset makes it an extremely hard to predict Pokémon, and I can't really think of any good counters. Of course stuff like Focus Sash Abra can use Dazzling Gleam, and Spritzee can switch in on a Dark-type move of a Choice Scarf set, and Berry Juice Onix can also switch in on a lot of Murkrow's attacks, but then the problem arises that all of those handle a different moveset. Prankster Murkrow with Subsitute/Roost is handled by Onix's Rock Blast (not sure on EV spread on such Murkrow sets, but worst case scenario:
    236 Atk Onix Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Murkrow: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
    The problem with Onix, however, is that Sturdy + Berry Juice only works once. If murkrow is smart enough to switch out when Onix switches in, there's a good chance that its only counter will turn into a useless death fodder.


    Meditite is an interesting one. In Battle Factory it's occasionally extremely easy to sweep with Meditite. There are plenty of Pokémon unable to stand up against the little powerhouse, with its decent enough bulk to resist some hits from weaker Pokémon. One of the requirements for a Pokémon to be too powerful for a certain tier is that it's overcentralizing. I think we can safely say that any team without a Meditite counter (preferably Honedge for its ability to switch in and resist any but the Fire Punch set, which it still beats if switching in on Fake Out/Psycho Cut/Drain Punch/you name it) is destined to get swept by Meditite. To give an idea of Meditite's bulk, here's a little calculation that shows how my lead does against Meditite:

    252 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 8-9 (42.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Meowth Return vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 12-16 (63.1 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    We all remember Meowth from Gen 5 to be a strong but frail Pokémon. If these 2 face eachother as leads, Meowth wins. In any other scenario, Meowth has to run in fear, because if it switches in on Meditite's Fake Out, it has 51% chance to be killed by the Bullet Punch after SR.
    And, in my opinion, that immediately shows the problem with Meditite. 16 Speed is enough to outspeed some of the bulkier Pokémon, 26 Attack punches holes in anything other than Slowbro/Snubbull/Honedge, assuming the standard set of Fake Out/Psycho Cut/Bullet Punch/Drain Punch, and even Snubbull will eventually fall to the Fake Out/Bullet Punch combo, considering its lack of recovery.
    While Meditite is in no way as broken as Murkrow, I would like to look at another ban in LC, one I feel is less broken than Meditite: Yanma. I won't deny I haven't played Yanma in Gen 6, but in Gen 5 it was part of my team. Compoundeyes, of course, since Speed Boost was banned. The Compoundeyes Hypnosis is an argument for Yanma to be banned altogether, instead of just banning Speed Boost. In that case we might as well ban Spore, since that's even more likely to hit than Compoundeyes Hypnosis.
    Yanma's Speed stat is high, and with also decent Special Attack, it was somewhat dangerous. But, in my opinion, Yanma in Gen 5 had more counters than Meditite has in Gen 6. Not to mention the extra counters Yanma has gotten in Gen 6.
    The point I'm trying to make with this is that, if Yanma was found to be too broken for Gen 6 LC, I don't see how Meditite, with less counters, more offensive pressure, and more versatile moveset, can not be banned.

    In conclusion, ban both Murkrow and Meditite.
     
  7. Yagura

    Yagura

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    Judging a Pokémon's power just by being powerful in Battle Factory makes no sense, in BF you get random Pokémon and in LC you can build your team to counter Meditite whatever the way you want, so basing your opinion on that isn't the best idea.

    I don't think it's right to speak about Yanma in Murkrow and Meditite's suspect thread, a better place to discuss it is the LC General Discussion thread.
     
  8. Endeavour

    Endeavour Member

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    The reason I bring up Battle Factory is to prove Meditite's general power. While the Pokémon are random, the sets are not. If Meditite can sweep more often than other Pokémon, it may start ringing some bells how Meditite is more overcentralizing than other Pokémon. For example, a Pokémon like Riolu doesn't have the speed, the bulk, or the offensive power to ever be considered too powerful for the metagame. When you need to include specific counters to 1 Pokémon, in Meditite's case the only counter being Honedge, you can safely say it doesn't belong in the LC tier, just like it didn't belong there in Gen 5.

    The reason I bring up Yanma is to show a comparison. Yanma is in all ways less broken, but was still considered too powerful for LC. A more dangerous Pokémon, like Meditite, couldn't possibly be considered less of a threat just because Honedge exists.

    The whole idea of suspect discussion is, in my opinion, to see if individual Pokémon are too powerful, on their own (like in Battle Factory), in comparison to others (like I compared it to Yanma), and in relation to their checks/counters (Honedge being the only real one, in case of Meditite).
     
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  9. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Not posting about Murkrow because the general consensus is that it needs to be banned, however:
    I think you should mention Yanma elsewhere as this is a discussion for Murkrow and Meditite.
    @Yagura, building your team to counter Meditite consists of, in most cases, running Honedge. LO Meditite in no way needs both Fake Out and Bullet Punch meaning there is a completely open slot for a new move whether it be Thunderpunch (Slowbro and Vullaby) or Poison Jab (Snubbull), or even Fire Punch (Honedge). The scary thing is that the LEAST offensive of the two sets is the one that is being used most, brought up most often, and is still a top tier threat. I don't know about you, but I find LO Medi's power just straight up addicting.

    Let's be completely honest here, Meditite has 0 counters (at least that we have found so far) in the LC Metagame. How is this healthy?
    With it's power something is going to die. Simple as that. You can only out defense it based on having the right check and Medi having the wrong coverage move. Outside of that you are forced to outspeed and revenge kill (unless you predict properly, but prediction is a bad argument). This is pretty easy for the LO set, but the added bulk from Eviolite makes it difficult to just straight up 0hko Medi.

    This is a very similar case to that of MegaCham in UU with the except of the fact that MegaCham had a long lists of checks and counters, all of which were incredibly viable, and MegaCham not really having space for a coverage move or that coverage was simply not worth using. In the case of Meditite, the LO variant only needs one source of priority to be ok.. The Eviolite version is more dependent on both, but the LO one just doesn't care for having 2 priority moves. That set works fine on it, but there is a better option to run in that 4th slot. I have used LO Medi a lot and it just kills things with little problem. The opponent is then "forced" to bring in a check early in the match making wearing said check down fairly easy.

    I don't get why this thing is here. It's way too strong.

    @Pokemon United
    Fletchling is a revenge killer. Not a check. Snubbull is surprisingly easy to beat with Meditite. I like to mention Honedge as the only check because coverage wise, Fire Punch is pretty meh to run. It is also only helpful for Honedge and Medi hits all other Pokemon it would hit hard harder with STAB. Also let it be mentioned that:
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 156 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Honedge: 6-9 (26 - 39.1%) -- 84.5% chance to 3HKO
    So unless you are running Pursuit you will eventually lose this before Medi. Thunderpunch 4hko's at worst and Honedge has no recovery.
    Poison Jab isn't a useless coverage move as it helps with Spritzee, Cottonee, and other miscellaneous Fairy/Grass types.
    Thunderpunch eats Slowbro and Vullaby as well as does decent damage to Snubbull and Honedge and any other Pokemon that would switch into Medi.

    And keep in mind how easy it is to support Murkrow. Practically all of its checks lose to Vullaby. Honedge is a fantastic partner that beats Missy and Snubbull. Pawniard beats them all, or puts them in a position where Meditite can easily finish them off, I mean come on guys. How is this thing ok in LC?

    We have established that Honedge is a solid check, but that is it. I mean, even that is easily bypassed.
     
  10. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Meditite to me is broken simply because it is impossible/extremely hard to check it. I'm fine if it was a very small amount of counters, but this thing doesn't have checks or counters due to it's amazing movepool. Meditite has greats stabs that have near perfect coverage bar mixed typed mons and pure power which instantly doubles it's attack that can utilize eviolite and life orb extremely well. Running eviolite on Meditite doesn't hinder it at all because of the amazing boost pure power gives it. Most mons sacrifice power for longevity with eviolite, however Meditite has both power + longevity which makes it an efficient bulky attacker. LO Meditite is just so strong it's stupid and can possibly destroy checks/counters with it's stabs that would normally resist (Probably 2hko). It has two nice priority moves that alone can cost you about half your health to things that have mediocre bulk.

    Meditite moves imo that are pretty good: Poison Jab / Ice Punch / Fire Punch / Zen Headbutt / Psycho Cut / Fake out / Bullet Punch / Drain Punch / HJK / Thunder Punch / Baton Pass / Fake out / Bullet Punch

    I know it can't run all of those moves, but mentally you can't slack off and tell yourself "X move is extremely rare, so it probably won't have it". If you get careless for one turn you can lose your so called "counter" or "check". People can easily exploit the most common check/counter that people are using by running a coverage move that Meditite has and just break it down. Meditite is too much for XY LC at the moment.
     
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  11. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    This guy totally realized that he didn't comment on meditate. Too bad its too late to start posting paragraphs on what it does :c needed the practice...

    In short: Pure power, great coverage, two priority moves, hi jump kick nukes, usually walled by something according to what coverage it picks, doesn't hit 17 speed.

    Ban it
     
  12. Yagura

    Yagura

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    False. Meditite can be literally KOed by Honedge's Shadow Sneak if you consider the Life Orb recoil. I don't understand why you mentioned that Pursuit Honedge actually deals with Meditite but if I'm missing something I'd appreciate if you point it out.

    Well, you've just mentioned it: Meditite (especially LO) Usually needs the priority moves to play its role in the best way. I understand that, like Celebi said, only one is important but Meditite's medicore speed compared to the other threats in LC makes relying on priority moves necessary in some cases, Meditite also needs its STAB that make a wonderful attacking core. With the two priority and the STABs there's no room for a coverage move and like I always say the reason Meditite should stay is its 4-Moveslot Syndrome that makes Meditite a Pokémon that can be easily walled by either a Fairy-type or Honedge and you can always sack something to revenge kill it by either Misdreavus, Fletchling and any faster Pokémon with a super effective move against it (Some of you may call that a gamble or that Meditite is over centralizing the metagame but I think you got my point).

    Also, a lot of you may think that it's too early to speak about it but I'll just say it straight: Since Murkrow is being 99% out from the tier because of the overwhelming support to it being banned I can predict that people will start using Fletchling instead of it since its the nearest Pokémon to play Murkrow's role (Like what's happening on Smogon at the moment), therefore Meditite won't be as much of a threat as it is right now.
     
  13. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    I only mentioned priority on LO, not evio nor the choiced version. I personally run Fake out / Fight Stab / Psychic Stab / Coverage or Coverage 1 / Fight Stab / Psychic Stab / Coverage 2. You can revenge kill any mon so I don't think revenge killing is a good argument. Fairies bar Spritzee get 3hko'd by it's fighting stabs or if it opts for Poison Jab, it 2hko's all fairies. I personally think Fake Out leaves you open to a lot of a free switches, when instead you can be hitting hard with stab or neutral coverage.
     
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  14. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    @Yagura
    I'm not sure anyone will be keeping Meditite in on Honedge, so that's why I mentioned Pursuit. It's not completely necessary but it is the only reliable way to beat Meditite with it, because again, unless you are sacrificing it, why would you keep it in on something that it does nothing to?

    Also regarding the 4MSS, this is true however it is EASILY worked around. Eviolite almost NEEDS both priority moves, so this is the set in which 4MSS really hurts, but Scarf/Band only run Bullet Punch if they run priority at all, and the LO version typically runs one of the two. You really only need 1 priority move. When I run the LO set I go Fake Out/Bullet Punch, High Jump Kick, Zen Headbutt, Whatever coverage move fits best. When using Vullaby it is Poison Jab. In short, whatever Pokemon I am partnering Meditite up with, I run the coverage move that deals with the threat said partner has trouble with. When there is no clear option Fire Punch is used because it beats Meditite's hardest check. Essentially every match is a gamble playing against it defensively. The only way to reliably deal with it is to run a combination of 2 checks that can scout and effectively deal with Meditite after figuring out its coverage move. A great example being Honedge and Slowpoke. Fletchling being used more does not change the fact that Meditite nukes the entire tier. Fletchling NEVER has a safe switch in anyway, so you need something to die in order to get it in to begin with.

    Also with revenge killing, you either lose a mon or predict properly. Predicting is a 2 way street and losing a mon is not effectively beating Meditite.

    Also regarding Meditate as a move... I'm not sure how viable this actually is primarily because of Meditite's speed. It doesn't appear like it can effectively make use of it. I'd try it but LC ladder is dead and I like LO Medi so much.
     
  15. Endeavour

    Endeavour Member

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    As has been mentioned, if you keep Meditite in on Honedge, then yes, Honedge wins. Otherwise, if you switch out to any Normal type, or just to a bulky Pokémon preferably also resisting the move (Vullaby is lovely for that), Meditite is all safe to come back in again.

    While Fake Out/Bullet Punch together take out Pokémon like Spinarak leads (Fake Out then Psycho Cut) and Pokémon like Venipede (Psycho Cut then Bullet Punch), it's unlikely that you'll use Meditite as a counter to hazard setters. You don't need both priority moves, and you might end up picking a coverage move over the Fake Out. At which point the problem for your opponent arises, switching to the Meditite counter and being hit by a coverage move, that's not very pretty. Sacrificing a Pokémon and revenge killing Meditite again doesn't work. Most people would probably use the Battle Factory set for Fletchling (SD/Return/Acrobatics/Overheat) which is walled hard by Rock-types. If you build your team with Meditite as your main hitter, you can include Vullaby and Onix to deal with Honedge/Fletchling, and if you're running Thunderpunch for coverage, you can use a Trubbish for example to deal with Fairy-types. This way you not only manage to defend yourself against Meditite counters, you also have a SR setter and a Spikes/Toxic Spikes setter.

    If your opponent is stupid enough to let you revenge kill their Meditite then lucky you. If they're smart enough to switch, then you're in trouble. You can't sacrifice your revenge killer, so you'll have to switch out again. Sooner or later the cycle will repeat, and sooner or later you will either lose your counter or your revenge killer.

    Murkrow is another example of a Pokémon only being able to revenge kill Meditite. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that 1 less revenge killer in the tier makes Meditite LESS dangerous, but even so, it still means Meditite can only be revenge killed.
     
  16. Yagura

    Yagura

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    Please remember that people usually (they should) run Protect on suicidal leads like Spinarak (even though it can work as a decent attacker too), Venipede which helps it benefit from Speed Boost to get +1 in Speed, Surskit etc..

    Well, you didn't understand what I meant. I didn't say that the absence of Murkrow in the tier will make Meditite less dangerous, what I meant is that Murkrow's possible ban will make people run Fletchling more which will make running Meditite not as safe as now.
     
  17. Endeavour

    Endeavour Member

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    The point is that Meditite won't run 2 priority moves with the right partners. It could help, as Fake Out + Psycho Cut can kill Spinarak while Psycho Cut + Bullet Punch will kill Venipede (without having to fear Endeavor, as most people seem to go for the Endeavor after their sash kicks in), but mostly Meditite can afford to go for coverage.
    Also, if Fletchling's usage will increase, that doesn't mean Meditite will be any less safe to run, it just means Meditite will more often partner with a Rock-type like Onix to deal with Fletchling.
    Like I said, being able to revenge kill something doesn't help all that much, since your opponent can just switch Meditite out.
     
  18. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    That did not make any sense. Murkrow and Fletchling do the same thing to Meditite. They both can't switch in into meditite, they both outspeed Meditite in there own ways, except Fletchling won't always 1hko Meditite. If anything Meditite will be more powerful with Murkrow gone. ?_?
     
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  19. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    Hi hello, I have a few things to say on the topic. We all know that Murkrow is leaving, but Meditite is a different case and one that I personally don't think needs to leave:

    As Yagura mentioned, 4MSS is Meditite's biggest downfall. It wants to run Fighting STAB / Psychic STAB / Fake Out / Bullet Punch / Poison Jab / Thunder Punch / Rock Slide / Ice Punch and Fire Punch all in the same moveset. This makes it so that it will have multiple things that can come in and wall it because it can only run four of those moves at once, in which priority and at least one STAB is practically a necessity. Also, can we stop using Meditite switching out of its counter as an argument please, as that can apply to literally everything not weak to Pursuit/Shadow Tag mons. We also have to consider that most of Meditite's counters can take even a super effective coverage move and cripple it, or even outright KO it. For example, Meditite cannot even 2HKO Spritzee with Zen Headbutt (stronger than BP) while it can OHKO with just a little bit of prior damage and even sometimes Stealth Rock. If Meditite's LO, then Spritzee still has the chance to avoid the 2HKO and can outright OHKO it with ease. This goes for pretty much all of Meditite's counters, which sucks for it considering almost all of them can keep themselves healthy with reliable recovery, keeping themselves out of KO range. Yes, for the LO set, you need to predict carefully, but that's honestly how the game works and doesn't really make Meditite broken. Finally, Meditite even faces trouble with item choices, as without Eviolite, revenge killing it is ridiculously easy, and without Life Orb, it cannot beat its bulkier checks.

    With all of that said, I think that Meditite faces way too many problems with its set choices, as it needs to carry the right moves or it will be blatantly walled by something or the other, while its item choice just changes the category of its checks, not the number.
     
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  20. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Meditite doesn't care for Ice Punch or Rock Slide. For the 4MSS:
    Eviolite:
    Yes this is a huge problem. The Eviolite set practically NEEDS both priority moves and both STAB moves so yes it suffers from a huge case of this. This set is the easiest to counter (Spritzee, Snubbull, Honedge, Vullaby, Cottonee, Slowpoke) and the hardest to revenge kill. This is the only set that has counters.
    LO:
    4MSS is also a problem here, but not as much as before. As previously stated, LO Meditite wants to run Priority/STAB/STAB/Coverage (The most general spread). This coverage move being a choice between 3 moves. Fire Punch, Poison Jab, and Thunderpunch. Meditite has 0 counters. Absolutely none. There is not a single Pokemon that wants to switch into Meditite. All of it's checks lose to a combination of STAB+SE Coverage move. Spritzee and Snubbull only work if Meditite doesn't carry Poison Jab. Slopoke only works if you don't carry Thunderpunch. More or less the same with Vullaby. Honedge only works if Medi doesn't carry Fire Punch. These mons are easily the best checks to Meditite but all easily fall to a perfectly viable coverage move. Meditite loses nothing on the LO set by running a coverage move. It is actually the best way to run Meditite.

    You may also be surprised at how easily LO Meditite functions by replacing Psychic STAB with Poison Jab and opening up the 4th slot for a 2nd coverage move (this does open you up to Koffing, Trubbish, and potentially Foongus... but LOL). Fairies just die, and Ghosts get 2hko'd at most by Thunderpunch/Fire Punch meaning you can switch in once. I have played with this quite a bit and Psychic STAB is easily the most expendable move.

    I understand that Meditite can't run all of these moves at once, but forcing you to run all of these Pokes at once, at least two that cover each others faults, or playing in hope that Meditite doesn't carry the coverage move that screws you over is exactly why it needs to go. If you don't Meditite can and will screw you all the way up. This is not even taking into account the fact that Meditite literally nukes the entire rest of the tier. There is a very small list of Pokemon that can check Meditite. All of which easily lose to viable sets.
     
  21. Endeavour

    Endeavour Member

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    Exactly.

    While that's true, it also means Meditite having only 1 real counter (the rest all being afraid of coverage moves, since we've already established it will mostly run 1 priority move) is extremely dangerous since you'll have to save your 1 counter/revenge killer all battle long, basically having to deal with the rest of your opponent's team with 4 other Pokémon, instead of having a 6v6 battle.
     
  22. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    >meditite needs ice punch
    What does that hit again? Drilbur? plz

    Alright so im gathering so far that meditites is hard countered by spritzee, snubbull and honedge. In case you all didn't notice all of these are prone to being knocked off.
    Lets assume medi is running zen headbutt/thunder punch/drain punch/insert prio here.

    196 Atk Pure Power Meditite Psycho Cut vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    -1 196 Atk Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Snubbull: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    196 Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Honedge: 8-10 (38 - 47.6%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Admittedly honedge would be pretty hard to knock off but from looking at the thread thus far yall seem to have come to the consensus that honedge is a hard counter.
    pursuit also exsists.
    Also note how a.) Those are jolly evio medi calcs and b.) two of the tree above have no reliable recovery how spritzees recovery forces it to run protect allowing a free switch to something.
    Something I felt was worth pointing out...
     
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  23. Endeavour

    Endeavour Member

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    Knock Off is banned from LC though, but it's true that Meditite's counters can't really safely switch in on a lot either, making Honedge the only reliable counter (in my opinion).
     
  24. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    oh dear lord
    it was just unbanned >.>
     
  25. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Pursuit/Shadow Sneak Honedge is the closest thing we're going to get to a counter to Meditite, and at that is still has the potential to lose (prediction) BUT I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the Honedge user because Honedge has the advantage and will win a majority of the time. With that said, I had a battle with Beryllium, which I'm pretty sure is @Chlorine Trifluoride , earlier using one of my LO Medi teams. It was a great battle but I had control of the game the entire time. He has 2 answers to Medi and they stayed off of the field for most of the match because he NEEDED them to not get swept so he essentially played 4 mons vs my 6. My Meditite rarely saw the field of play and I ended up sacking it near the end because his checks couldn't beat the rest of my alive team. This is something that I have found to be a reoccurring theme with Meditite. Most teams consist of one and maybe two answers to it, and they don't appear in battle until Meditite does because taking unnecessary damage can turn 3hk0's into 2hk0's rendering said check useless.

    What I'm trying to get at is simply having Meditite on your team puts you at an advantage. You control the match in terms of numbers and you limit what your opponent will and will not do. You don't have to get any KO's or have Meditite in for its presence to give you an advantage in battle. This doesn't even take into account moveset. So even if you don't have the proper moveset, you still run the battle. This level of control is unseen by any other Pokemon in LC because no other mon comes close to Medidite in terms of high power and limited checks.
     
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  26. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Knock Off isn't banned

    Also because of pure power it doesn't need to run all the moves lol Even then the elemental punches hit Evio Missy and Evio Pawniard ~40% or more which is pretty good considering it's not stab, only able to switch in 3 times not even factoring SR damage. These are just examples
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2014
  27. Endeavour

    Endeavour Member

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    This is exactly what I meant when I said it's 4 Pokémon vs 6. Meditite's checks/revenge killers can simply not come in out of fear they will be dead before Meditite can be killed. Having Meditite gives control, because it's overcentralizing.

    Also on another note, Knock Off was testbanned, I didn't realise that was over already and unbanned again. I guess that's my bad.
     
  28. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    I'm all for banning murkrow, it's fast, it hits hard and so on. Most of the relevant points and calculations have already been stated so i'll be brief(fail...).
    Life orb murkrow is lethal. Brave bird and suckerpunch are oft times all it needs to steamroll, on occasion it will use heat wave for a steel type (though suckerpunch will do sometimes as they no longer resist it) and dark pulse is another nice stab move, hitting steels neutrally and chinchou as well for what i believe is a 2HKO with rocks on 252/252 +nature chinchou, which is a stupid set to run outside of potentially countering murkrow. That being said chinchou isnt hard to wear down for a KO given the lack of passive recovery of leftovers you have in other tiers, and the fact restalk is only semi reliable even with the return to the old gen 4 mechanics.

    Other "counters"? Well, nosepass, onix? Even though I love nosepass, i must admit he isnt the best choice for the metagame, and he too lacks reliable recovery.

    The other arguement I've seen before to keep it is it simply kills itself. Sure, it does that, brave bird+LO will KO it. When? Probably after 2-3 KOes, and that's assuming it just spams brave bird, ignoring suckerpunch, dark pulse, heat wave which it could use. So in reality this is a bad arguement.

    there is also the matter that it can be revenge killed, firstly, i'd like to mention revenge kill implies it has scored a KO. This means murkrow has already at least made an even KO exchange for the murkrow user.

    What stops it from switching out and coming back later, knowing it scores a KO for each time it switches in? Secondly, he resists suckerpunch, one of the strongest priority moves in the game (who runs e speed anyway?), secondly he is weak only to ice shard, and snover wont be switching in on anything bar a revenge kill. Other priority moves such as mach punch? again their users can not switch in safely, even if they avoid an OHKO on the switch they are also facing a suckerpunch to get finished off as they are more than likely slower than murkrow. Scarfers or 20 speeders are on a similar boat, most times they dont run eviolite and/or dont have great bulk, leaving them very vulnerable to a suckerpunch. Not the mention they have to come in after a KO, which means murkrow has already created at least an even KO trade.


    Meditite I'm a bit on the line with...
    It is by no means uncheckable, as it doesn't reach a tremendous speed stat bar choice scarf which somewhat handicaps meditite as well as helping it. That being said, it's still dangerous and might deserve a ban based on it's pure power.
    Anyways, my main issue with meditite is that while it isnt blazing fast, it outspeeds the tier's walls and bulky pokemon. So what? It also scores 2HKOs without exception (Honedge, sure, which has no recovery options and isn't difficult to dispose of with pursuit/diglet or cripple with knock off. Plus there is fire punch). This is an issue because it makes stall (already somewhat handicapped) and slow or bulky offense near unplayable without being forced to run a few (not one, two, minimum) pokemon specifically to handle meditite, which can otherwise get in the way and may not be ideal choices synergy wise.

    Another point, though is that if meditite is versing an offensive team (and is not a scarfed variant), it is still a threat. Should it come in on something that does not threaten it in particular (a fighting type maybe like mienfoo or something) it can very easily fire off an attack, and if you predict decently you will almost always score a KO or at least severely cripple the pokemon that came in (likely into bullet punch KO range) since offensive teams tend to rely on fast checks as opposed to walls to handle meditite.
    So, while less effective against offense, it is still very potent.

    I'm obviously for banning murkrow, I feel it is powerful and doesnt belong in a healthy LC.
    I have to say I'd rather have meditite banned, having a personal preference for slower and slightly more defensive teams.

    EDIT: Text wall....
    EDIT: How do you use secret tags now?
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
  29. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    To get this out of the way as I will refer to checks a few times later, the primary checks to Meditite include:
    Snubbull / Honedge / Slowpoke / Vullaby / Spritzee / Cottonee / Misdreavus / Fletchling / Murkrow / Archen / Abra / Gastly / Tailow / Natu (lol)
    Also. HUGE WALL OF TEXT BELOW. PREPARE YOURSELF NOW. Beware of the calc section. I tried to bold the important part. Don't die of eye cancer.

    The problem with Meditite is that it makes it damn near impossible to run any playstyle without suffering in some way, shape, form, of fashion. Offensively oriented teams rely on outspeeding, and this is when Eviolite Meditite shines the most. It becomes incredibly difficult to 0hko and it can come in on a surprisingly large amount of Pokemon with little to no worry. You rely on Pokemon like Murkrow, Misdreavus, and Fletchling in order to beat Meditite with offensively oriented teams and none of them can safely switch into Meditite so you either have to predict or revenge kill. If you aren't running a Ghost it becomes even more hell dealing with Meditite as it can freely spam Drain Punch and stay at a high level or HP. There are very few things that any team can put out that Meditite just doesn't want to be in on. This talk is all not even including the fact that double priority helps a metric fuck ton against many Pokemon that outspeed Meditite. I also haven't even taken into account the bulky set that is both incredibly reliable and incredibly effective because it avoid moves that would otherwise 0hko it with an offensive spread.

    Offensive teams have a much easier time with LO Medi as it lacks the bulk to take the hits that it otherwise would be able to before, but it still causes problems. In doesn't have as many Pokemon that it doesn't mind being in on, but there are still a fair amount that Meditite can find itself reliably in on. Offensive teams simply aren't taking a hit from this. The double priority becomes even more of an issue as Meditite is hitting even harder than before. We have already established that there are very few Pokemon that are taking a hit from Meditite. In order for offense to effectively keep it in check, all Pokemon essentially need to outspeed or be Ghosts, which even at that is not a reliable way to handle it because double priority is and always will be an issue. Hell, even if Meditite isn't running double priority there are still very few safe switch ins and priority moves break Sashes and Sturdy that other teammates will greatly appreciate.

    Balanced and Defensive/Bulky Offensive teams have an even tougher time dealing with Meditite because they don't have the ability to maintain offensive pressure. At this point they rely on predicting because Meditite can literally 2hko the entire tier. They have an easier time dealing with Eviolite Medi because it doesn't hit as hard and is significantly easier to counter than LO Medi, but it is still a top tier threat. LO Medi just absolutely decimates these teams. You really just have to rely on having the right check to be able to deal with LO Medi. It hits harder than a 2 ton truck and the lack of offensive pressure really hurts these teams. Revenging with Offensive mons is the only way these teams can handle LO Medi. I'm not going to mention Stall because Stall is a dead playstyle in LC, mainly because of Knock Off.

    We have established that there are very few switch ins to Meditite. It 2hko's the entire metagame and Honedge is the closest thing to call a counter, and even at that, it is not a counter unless it runs BOTH PURSUIT AND SHADOW SNEAK. All of its other checks are EASILY dealt with using either Stealth Rocks or a simple coverage move. LO Medi doesn't need double priority and functions significantly better without it. Supporting is also incredibly easy. Pokemon like Vullaby, Honedge, Scraggy, and Pawniard can effectively deal with Meditite's checks with or without a coverage move. It becomes even easier when you do run a coverage move. Say if you run Thunderpunch you just need to run something that reliably handles Faires. With Poison Jab something that beats Slowpoke and Vullaby. Stealth Rocks and Sticky Web are also FANTASTIC ways to support Meditite as with 1 you turn some 3hko's into 2hko's and with the latter you slow down opposing Pokemon that could potentially be threatening.

    Let's look back at that check list for a minute.
    Snubbull:
    -1 196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Poison Jab vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Snubbull: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Easily dispatches with Poison Jab.
    -1 196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Snubbull: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Adamant has a fantastic chance to 2hko with Rocks up. 11.3% without Rocks.
    Honedge: For the purpose of the health of this discussion I'll consider this a counter.
    Slowpoke:
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 200 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 16-21 (57.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Adamant isn't needed. This is also the bulkiest of Slowpoke's sets. After Rocks HJK + Tpunch is a guaranteed 0hko meaning predicting is not an issue.
    Vullaby:
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 196 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 13-18 (50 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Jolly 2hko's
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 196 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 19-23 (73 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. HJK also 2hko's
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 196 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Jolly Drain Punch has fantastic chances after Rocks.
    196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 196 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 12-16 (46.1 - 61.5%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO Adamant Drain Punch 2hko's more often than not. HJK and Thunderpunch are guaranteed.
    Spritzee:
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Poison Jab vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 16-21 (59.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 12-16 (44.4 - 59.2%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 12-16 (44.4 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-12 (37 - 44.4%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    I don't think there is much to say here. Let the calcs speak for themselves.
    Cottonee:
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. +3 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 5-8 (21.7 - 34.7%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO.
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. +6 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 4-5 (17.3 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO.
    116 SpA Cottonee Moonblast vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Meditite: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO. Meditite's chances are fantastic. That's assuming you shove the remaining EV's into Sp.A and not Sp.D
    For all you that don't want to do math, you need to live 3 hits in order to stall with Leech Seed. So 52+21+21=94% 69+34+34=137%. Absolute min is 94% absolute max is 137%. We are looking for 100% or higher. The difference between the min and max is 43. The difference between the max and the 3hko minimum is 37. the chance to 3hko is 37/43 or 86%. This is assuming PO rounds everything down. If they round up than its a 90% chance. So basically, advantage Meditite.
    Misdreavus:
    236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 18-24 (81.8 - 109%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 5-6 (21.7 - 26%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO Using the math from earlier, 41.1% chance to 2hko after Rocks for Meditite (Zen + BP)
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    196 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 6-8 (26 - 34.7%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO. 96.1% chance to 2hko w/o Rocks. If it rounds up 100% chance without Rocks
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    196+ Atk Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
    196+ Atk Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 3-4 (13 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO Burned Medi has a 96.1% chance to 3hko (Zen+Zen+BP) on offensive Misdreavus with WoW. Rounding up 5's means 100%. Stealth Rocks guarantees.
    In short, Medi has a 41% chance on the LO set (with Rocks), and 96% on the bulky set (w/o Rocks) to win compared to Misdreavus' 6.3%
    Bulky spreads always win (no one runs that)
    Fletchling - My god I'm done with calcs and math (4 a.m.... too much). Fletchling revenges. I'll remove calcs since you know the method. But Fletchling has a 6.3% chance to 0hko the bulky eviolite set. Medi has a 78.5% chance to 2hko. 85.7% rounding up. You should also never switch this into LO Medi. HJK 0hko's and Zen Headbutt does 61-80%.
    Murkrow - Can only reliably revenge
    Archen - Can only reliably revenge
    Abra - Probably the best revenger. Never switch directly in
    Gastly - Can only reliably revenge.
    Tailow - There is a trend going for good reason.
    Natu (lol). - Usage too low to calc anything. Also tired of calc'ing things. But this thing is pretty reliable unless Tpunch

    Ok this was more tedious that I thought. I got super lazy near the end, but for good reason.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2014
  30. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    I don't know where we are on this, but I would like to see Murkrow banned fast, hopefully before the end of this week. It's simply just too powerful, too fast and so versatile it ultimately has no checks in the meta. I still believe that Meditite is not broken and does not deserve a ban, as it has a couple of very solid checks with high usage statistics (snubbul, honedge) and even better revenge killers (missy, fletchling, abra,) also with high usage.
     
  31. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    So sorry about this guys was hoping to have this wrapped up faster but Mylo for whatever reason pretty much fell to 0 activity over the past two weeks so there has been no chance for us to discuss this. Murkrow as everyone agrees is being banned, no arguments put forward by anyone for it to stay. Meditite is something I'm completely on the line for. I don't feel like me making a decision alone on that would be fair and seen as this thread offers split opinions on it then for now i'm going to continue the suspect on it to see how it fairs in a metagame without Murkrow. Don't expect this to be a long extension especially if Mylo gets back.
     
  32. Yagura

    Yagura

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    It's almost a month and nothing has been said here. Will a decision be made anytime soon fitzy?
     
  33. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    just gonna shamelessly bump this for a verdict...
     
  34. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Sorry for the delay.
    Arte added as LC TL. We talked this over and the decision is Meditite is going to be banned.

    Next suspect starts 4th August and its going to be Misdreavus + whatever people want. Post in the general discussion thread as to what you want suspected please or we are going to assume everything else is perfectly ok. It can be anything excluding unbans.
     
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