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Testban: Knock Off

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LC' started by Weavile, Apr 16, 2014.

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  1. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Our next order of business in the way of tests/suspects is Knock Off.
    Now, this is a little different, because KO is a move. But the general feeling among those calling for this test seems to be that it puts an unhealthy skew on the metagame. Only one way to find out.

    Post reasons for Knock Off to stay or leave the LC metagame. Normal suspect rules apply. Do NOT theorymon, if we wanted that we wouldn't have tried a testban, the impact this could have is far too faceted to theorymon on.

    The testban will last for three weeks if a consensus is reached by then, we will enact it. If not we may continue the testban for a further week, or pursue other courses of action.
     
  2. Yagura

    Yagura

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    Just one question: will this change occur in the current week of POWC?
     
  3. Mylo Xyloto

    Mylo Xyloto if your world falls apart, i'd start a riot

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    No, seeing that it is a testban it doesn't affect something like the POWC. Unless it is banned officially.
     
  4. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Will post for sure on why Knock Off should stay later.

    Edit: That list that was provided about Knock Off users can't really afford to run knock off due to severe 4mss. A lickitung doesn't want to be stuck with knock off as it's only attacking move, Archen has to run roost for sure, then decide whether it wants Rock Slide / Uturn / Defog / SR / Earthquake / Acrobatics / Knock off. Tirtouga yeah this can afford to run it, Vullaby can run it but most likely it will it's only attacking move because Vullaby also wants to run Taunt / Roost / Toxic / Brave Bird / Whirlwind / U-turn. The main Knock Off users this gen IMO are Gunk / Timburr / Mienfoo / Pawniard / Scraggy and all of these are checked/countered by almost the same thing. Larvesta / Grimer / Trubbish / Ponyta / Foongus / Fletchling / etc not to mention these pokes are also used as knock off absorbers bar Scraggy due to their dark resist. I don't see walls bar the things I mentioned get knocked off for example: Lileep / Porygon / Frillish / Tirtouga / Natu / Shieldon / Ferroseed / Munchlax get knocked off when they shouldn't even stay in on those pokemon.

    The staleness of the meta isn't because of knock off, it's because can't just run the top 6 pokemon in the usage stats and cba I guess to look outside the scope. I've been building bulky teams and knock off has never been a problem, if anything bulky teams might be op since all the walls will continue to have their eviolite.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  5. Heysup

    Heysup Active Member

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    A few people directed me to this thread and said I should share my opinion on a Knock Off ban/testban.

    I'm pretty sure the arguments for Knock Off are things like making stall less viable and fighting-types too strong. While I would say the former is a good thing, it is most definitely NOT the case with a Knock Off ban. Knock Off is basically the only way for a stall or balance player to stop Berry Juice set up sweepers. I have a lot of experience in metagames with Berry Juice that lack Knock Off and it's just ugly. The most effective teams are either be Prankster Taunts and set up sweepers because those two strategies are the only things worth using. Think, for a second, about a Pokemon such as Misdreavus. You need to find a Pokemon that OHKOes Misdreavus in order to stop getting swept by it because you can't 2HKO and if you try to 3HKO it you're going to be out 3 Pokemon. All it needs to do is come in on something somewhat defensive or unable to hit it super effectively. Berry Juice without Knock Off to keep it in check is a very obscure metagame and I'm not sure if it's desired.

    This is just an initial post, I will probably post again with more after more time spent without Knock Off, but just some food for thought.
     
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  6. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    Alright, I'll post my thoughts on this since I have been playing LC quite a bit (albeit it's been on PS! more than PO, but they're the same metagame).

    Knock Off has only really been getting more attention now due to the fact that it got a major power boost and that it hits Steel-types neutrally, effectively making it a more "spammable" move. It is also a major buff for Fighting-types, as it lets them get past their Ghost- and Fighting-type checks. However, Gen 6 has introduced a new tactic to checking Knock Off and the majorly-buffed Fighting-types: Fairy-types Pokemon. Snubull and Spritzee are outright counters to almost every Fighting-type Pokemon in the game. These Fairy-types also check the Dark-types that spam Knock Off, all barring Pawniard, that is. And even Pawniard isn't that much of a problem, as it is kept in check by Fighting-types like Timburr, Mienfoo, and Scraggy. The metagame has evolved and adapted to keep up with Knock Off and its spammers, rendering it healthy for the metagame imo.

    Knock Off is also one of the few ways to check Berry Juicers, as Heysup mentioned before me. What he didn't mention was Recycle + Berry Juice Pokemon like Magnemite, Munchlax, and to a lesser extent, Bronzor. Without Knock Off, we would rely on outright OHKOing these Pokemon to keep them from annoying the hell out of us with Recycle + Berry Juice, which can be a task considering their great bulk and Magnemite's Sturdy ability.

    All-in-all, Knock Off is fairly a balanced Pokemon in the metagame, as the metagame has adapted to it just fine, and Knock Off is really helping to keep the metagame itself healthy instead of hindering it.
     
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  7. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    It hasn't even been a week into the ban and I already think misdreavus is broken as FUCK.

    After a bit of testing it seems that all ghosts/psychics are more viable due to not having to worry about that one move being spammed all over the place...not only this but berry juice is broken. Knock off was the only way to stop the onslaught and now that that's gone...berry juice misdreavus kills everything .-. Sturdy juicers aren't bad since mienfoo/meditate/croagunk/timburr shits on all of them but as mentioned above recyclejuicers are annoying.

    Gonna put some more shtuff in here later but so far the meta isn't as great as before
     
  8. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    I definitely agree Misdreavus is way to powerful now with only having Murk as a check/counter. Same thing for sturdy juice users like tirtouga and dwebble, a ss at full health is almost guaranteed now. I say unban knock off and instead suspect berry juice, which seems a bit too powerful right now.
     
  9. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Or.

    Or.

    You could do both at once. Just throwing it out there.
     
  10. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    What do you mean both at once? I hope you can read, I said unban knock off and THEN suspect berry juice. And if you aren't posting anything beneficial to the topic at hand, why even post?

    And it doesn't seem as if any developments have been made over knock off, has there been a a decision or something because this thread is dead!
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
  11. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    What I mean is exactly what I said: both at once. It is completely and utterly nonsensical to allow Berry Juice and then move to ban Knock Off which, if not solely responsible for balancing it, is an extremely dominant factor in the reasoning why Berry Juice isn't broken.

    Running a dual suspect of both is in my opinion the way to go here, as Berry Juice is too much to handle without anything to balance it out, while we've been playing in a metagame with Berry Juice banned and Knock Off existing in XY LC before here on PO.

    Or you can simply not test Knock Off at all and leave Berry Juice unbanned.

    I just didn't see the need to elaborate since the post itself is really self explanatory.
     
  12. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    So I've played/seen enough of the new tier to post about it and what made me against this suspect test from before it began has turned out to be true. The main argument presented against Knock Off before wasn't that it made any single Pokemon broken but that it makes LC more geared towards offensive teams and that you would be punished by running more defensive teams. In reality what I found is these are just less reasons to not run offense now with the ban. Defensive teams used the move just as much as anything to handle things. You want to try and stop me without Knock Off on your Mienfoo/Vullaby/Archen/Whatever? Go ahead.

    Missy was already borderline broken with Dazzling Gleam giving it amazing coverage this gen and Eviolite + Berry Juice both being totally viable and letting it beat different things. Without Knock Off its just even better and easily deserving of a suspect if Knock Off stays banned.

    While I do agree that without Knock Off Berry Juice is arguably too much thanks to glitches it was like that for a while on PO and everyone was singing Berry Juices praises as not being broken. What has changed people?
     
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  13. Dreams

    Dreams Active Member

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    In the LC event today, after abusing 6 berry juice sweepers to reach the finals.. My opponent , me , and the spectators who were following our battles all agreed to have a berry juice free finals . And might I say that the final win was probably the only match I felt I had put in effort to play .And probably the only match that was "fun".

    Berry Juice spam is as non competitive as swagger. Pack Honedge to force Fake Out users to switch ( since knock off is banned) . get back to setting up your shell smashers , dragon dancers and brainlessly spam the appropriate neutral move to kill . SE coverage is not necessary

    XY LC was never a fun tier to begin with , with knock off making stall teams a liability .With Knock Off banned and Berry Juice being allowed in conjunction with broken as fuck Missy ( It has Dazzling Gleam for insane coverage--has only bulky porygon as a true Counter) .. LC has somehow managed the impossible and gotten worse.. Knock Off needs to go , so does berry juice , and maybe Missy too .
    Ban Knock Off and Berry Juice. Suspect Missy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  14. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Stall was hard to run period, the closest you will get is like a regen core + other walls. This test ban was pretty unnecessary, since the effects should have been obvious. Knock Off keeps BJ in balance, it doesn't work vice versa though, and BJ has brought some diversity for the tier ie Trubbish / Munchlax / SubThief Krow / BD users etc. Even if it has brought some diversity I still don't know whether it's broken or not. Keep Knock Off, ban Murk / Tits / Missy, idk about BJ yet.
     
  15. Yagura

    Yagura

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    I think it's finally time to post my opinion about Knock Off. Excuse me because I took a while but I wanted to see how the metagame is by laddering and not using Poketheory on my post about this move that had a really huge impact on our dear Little Cup metagame.

    First of all, I'll talk about the influence of Knock Off on LC before it got testbanned:

    When XY got introduced every Pokémon player knew that Knock Off's base power boost will make a difference in competitive Pokémon and especially in LC. Their prediction was correct, Knock Off made Little Cup a metagame where playing Stall and even Balanced nearly impossible, people started spamming this move that was really underrated in the last generation. Normally, people started looking for checks against Knock Off but they ended up with really few Pokémon in Trubbish and Grimer because of their ability Sticky Hold that prevents the held item of being removed. Even then, those two Pokémon didn't have a decent bulk and that didn't change any thing and LC stayed centralized over Knock Off.

    After the test ban:

    I started laddering a little bit after the test ban and I noticed a decrease in the usage of both Mienfoo and Scraggy, these two Pokémon were banned from LC in the last generation got weakened after the introduction of the Fairy-type that is super effective against the both of them, but in the other hand they got an advantage in the boost of Knock Off. The decrease in the usage of those two Pokémon proves that people used them mainly because of Knock Off which strengthens the fact that Knock Off was over centralizing the metagame. Also, in the test ban period some few Pokémon started shining, some of these are Misdreavus, Slowpoke and Wynaut with Berry Juice. After the Knock Off test ban, Stall started shining again in the metagame and the ladder finally has some variety and originality instead of the Knock Off mess that it used to be. But some people didn't enjoy this test ban and justified by saying that Berry Juice became broken, but they actually forgot that Knock Off couldn't deal with Berry Juice and remove it from the Pokémon that is holding it because of a server bug, people started using hazards and Pokémon like Mienfoo and Meditite that can use Fake Out to deal with Berry Juice/Sturdy Pokémon. But, this test ban started a problem that is the huge increase in the usage of Misdreavus that was already hard to deal before the test ban and that became even harder, so I don't suspect that Misdreavus will be suspected if Knock Off gets banned, but for now I am not fully supporting a Misdreavus suspect.

    So in my opinion, keep Knock Off banned.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
  16. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Larvesta / Grimer / Trubbish / Ponyta / Foongus / Fletchling / Mienfoo / Timburr / Vullaby / Slowpoke / Faries etc

    All of these check/counter the mons that use knock off and can absorb the knock off and reliably beat them, so I don't get how knock off has "few checks". Trubbish is pretty bulky lol Recycle + BJ + all those resitances and natural bulk, have you ran it? The increase in Wynaut/Slowpoke, I believe, has nothing to do with knock off, if anything I think it has to do with Meditite being in the tier as they both do an amazing job at stopping it to an extent (Showdown allows knock off and slowpoke / wynaut were used so they could stop meditite, so that's why I think that). All you're doing is shifting the playstyle into a stall based meta making defensive teams overpowered, how is this different from when it was purely offense and how does this make the tier diverse? How is killing the offensive playstyle good diversity?As someone who runs stall/defensive teams I never had a problem with Knock Off because I never had any reason to switch all my mons into the pokemon that has knock off. I had one or two knock off absorbers and even when they were evioliteless they still fufilled their jobs as walls and still pressured the opposing team.

    Also Sturdy Juicers =/= Recycle Mons or people that run bj in general. Recycle mons can use their natural bulk to tank hits and regain health with recycle. You will need more than priority to stop them.

    Unban Knock Off
     
  17. Yagura

    Yagura

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    This seems like it'll turn up into a pages of argumenting so I'll try to sum up everything I need to say in one post a I was talking about Pokémon that can switch in a Pokémon that you're predicting it'll use Knock Off. All Pokémon you mentioned except Fletchling need their items to play their role in the most effective way. Also remember that the majority of Pokémon that have access to Knock Off can also learn Taunt (Mienfoo, Pawniard, Archen...) so people could've used that combo (like I did) to deal with BJ/Recycle Pokémon, probably that's why I never had a problem with them. Also, Wynaut had a 0.9% usage before this testban and it wasn't really the best counter for Meditite and people feared using it because of Knock Off being everywhere. I am pretty sure that having a variety of play styles in LC instead of being a cancerous HO metagame, think about it: Do you want LC to stay an unoriginal metagame with a move being spammed and abused in every single battle or do you want it to have some originality and variety? It's your choice.
     
  18. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    There is no such thing as "checking/countering" Knock Off without Sticky Hold. Only 2 of the pokemon Arte listed beat Knock Off, Grimer and Trubbish and the only reason they see use is their niche in beating Knock Off spam, one single move. Of the other pokemon listed, 80+% of the time they switch in on a knock off, lose their item and take a chunk of damage, and then the knock off user switches out. All that's been done in that situation is the knock off user has supported their team by removing the opponent's eviolite or choice item or recovery item, making the situation for the rest of their team members easier. It makes any kind of defensive play far, far less viable because the only thing that was making most defensive pokemon able to stand up to the high levels of power in the tier was eviolite, which in a knock off meta is practically not worth packing.

    You can blame closed-minded people all you want for a deeply centralized meta with knock off but the fact of the matter is we're actually seeing different pokemon and different playstyles being used, by everyone, because knock off is gone. knock off utterly ruined LC and it needs to stay gone. Mindless knock off spam was in every team because it was the only thing that works.
     
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  19. Heysup

    Heysup Active Member

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    Knock Off spam only works if you have no idea what you're doing and switch all of your Pokemon in to get them all Knocked Off. There are plenty of Pokemon that can easily tank Knock Off without losing their ability to do things. The Pokemon with Sticky Hold and Flame Body are a start, but there are also a bunch of Pokemon that actually function better with no item (Fletchling is a good example, Archen less so) and all of the sudden a 65 base power attack spamming is a horrible strategy. It really helps to switch the same Pokemon into predicted Knock Offs as well as switching a more viable counter into predicted non Knock Offs, like Pawniard's Iron Head is easy to switch into with any of the popular Mukrow counters such as Magnemite or Chinchou. Some Pokemon even do well against both like bulky Foo, Timburr, Scraggy, and Flame Body fire-types.

    Without Knock Off, Eviolite and Berry Juice are just too good along set up sweepers and walls (who are usually countered by said set up sweepers). If you want an example of a mindless game, it's right in front of you in the Knock Off-less meta.
     
  20. Yagura

    Yagura

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    Little Cup is a metagame where items are really important unlike most other tiers, even in the last generation Knock Off when its base power was low it still was effective, especially in the first few months of BW when people thought that Eviolite was broken as hell people started using Knock to get rid of it. Flame Body Pokémon aren't really Knock Off counters since you'll be betting on a 30% chance to burn which isn't reliable at all, I also don't understand how Archen functions well without an item (I understand that you mentioned it because of Acrobatics) since because of its ability Defeatist it needs its Berry Juice to get back its health so that it doesn't lose 50% of its attack.
     
  21. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Now while we may fundamentally disagree on whether Knock Off should go or not this is a pretty goddamn stupid thing to say. Berry Juice is unchanged by Knock Off because it activates when you take the hit. Eviolite is a fundamental balancing agent in LC and saying that it would be "too good" is not only completely unfounded but pretty much completely disproven by the existence of BW2 LC - XY didn't suddenly introduce a ton of powerful defensive pokemon that are broken without Knock Off in the tier because otherwise we'd actually see a variety defensive playstyles working now. They barely even worked last gen and that was -with- Mienfoo, Scraggy, Sand and Murkrow banned. Pokemon don't suddenly gain extra bulk from playing in a Knock Off less meta, they have the bulk that's already there that allows them to actually take on offensive threats. The difference between a Knock Off meta and a Knock Off less meta is generally 1 or 2 more switch ins on neutral + resisted attacks. That vastly changes play and actually allows pokemon that don't have regenerator to be effectively used defensively in LC. LC already puts defensive pokemon at a disadvantage even with eviolites intact - reliance on rolls being a huge factor. They need everything they can get to actually function in the tier.

    That said this is just the last protest from someone who knows that Knock Off will no doubt be back in LC again soon. I don't plan on continuing to play the tier when it comes back. The limits it places on the tier, the strategies you can use, and even the actual thought you have to put in to basic play, are far too much for me to enjoy playing the tier again.
     
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  22. Heysup

    Heysup Active Member

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    First of all, that's wrong (in the bold, Berry Juice does NOT activate when you get hit by Knock Off).

    And maybe we have different experiences with Eviolite (keeping in mind I've been playing since before Little Cup was a thing on Smogon or PO). Eviolite was really weird to me when it was introduced and there was no way to beat the stallish painful metagame it brought upon us in Gen 5. Gen 6 finally gave us a tool to beat it in Knock Off.

    Essentially what I think it comes down to is that with Knock Off you just have to play smarter which I understand can be frustrating when lots of the best strategies are Knock Off lures + sweepers. Its your job as a player to keep the Pokemon you need to avoid Knock Off away from it and it's usually the offensive Pokemon that can easily take Knock Off. I think that's just the simple reason why people don't like it. You can't just mindlessly switch into a Pokemon now.
     
  23. Yagura

    Yagura

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    Knock Off was introduced in the third generation.
     
  24. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    Pretty sure he meant the boost 6th gen gave knock off...

    Also, I've seen people saying that knock off introduced more creative ideas and different pokemon in the meta, and tbh that's completely wrong lol. After knock off was banned, it gave missy virtually no checks. Also, berry juice users have become so overpowered and difficult to stop, it's ridiculous. If knock off gets banned, fine that's ok, but misdreavus and berry juice would have to follow right away imo.
     
  25. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    In my opinion Bjuice is broken regardless of Knock Off or no, so personally I don't think that it's a considerable thing either way.

    I also never quite understood why people thought Misdreavus was so darn unbeatable in Knock Off less meta but I'm not gonna up and say it's definitely fine or whatever. Dazzling Gleam did give it really top notch coverage where last gen it had little beyond Shadow Ball + HP Fighting, and there's little that can switch in on it freely, if anything at all (Porygon, Stunky etc don't exactly appreciate W-o-W, Houndour can be 2hkoed on the switch by Dazzling Gleam or Tbolt if it gets unlucky, etc) and many things, Fighting types in particular, lose their one way to keep Missy in check.

    @ Heysup, your logic of "You can't just mindlessly switch into a Pokemon now." really bugs me, largely because you're essentially implying that Ubers, OU, UU, LU and NU, past gen tiers, Side Metas, etc, are all tiers where playing defensively is just a mindless act of switching into hits. The sheer bias you have against defensive play meaning you think it has to be basically nerfed by being forced to have to be played -utterly exceptionally every single time it's ever used- to even stand a chance of standing up to offensive pressure, where offense doesn't have to put any special effort to be, at worst, good, is kind of insane to me. Defensive play is rewarded, just like different kinds of play, by clever switches and predictions in any other tier. That does not happen in Knock Off LC. At least it stands a fighting chance in non-Knock Off LC even though even then it's still at a natural slight disadvantage.

    "there was no way to beat the stallish painful metagame it brought upon us in Gen 5." is utterly ridiculous because Gen 5 LC was ruled by offense - latter Gen 5 LC slightly bulkier offense than earlier Gen 5 LC but offense nonetheless. A majority of the time in the tier was ruled by pokemon like Mienfoo, Murkrow, Misdreavus, Meditite. Even the support pokemon were fastish hard hitters like Drilbur and pokemon that could use a defensive or an offensive set like Chinchou were much likely to run the latter. I was the only player to my knowledge in LC that attempted to run some kind of stall and even that was essentially forced to be Semi-Stall because you simply couldn't run a team of defensive/support pokemon because most of the time you end up losing to unfortunate rolls, recovery for LC pokemon is limited at best and sketchy as hell at worst. BW2 LC did have defensive cores. And by defensive cores I mean a defensive core. Which is still the only defensive core to this day (Foongus/Slowpoke)

    You don't have to pick and choose where you use Knock Off, you can use it more or less freely without having to think about it because you gain an advantage 90% of the time no matter what you hit (unless you hit Trubbish or Grimer or you get unlucky with hax like Flame Body). The corresponding side is you absolutely have to pick and choose what you bring in on Knock Off and you are constantly at risk of losing items - items are vital on every pokemon in the tier and every pokemon relies on them to play a role in a team. Knock Off skews a game so strongly that a person is forced to use it on multiple pokemon on every team or they lose. It goes way beyond centralization, and it makes the meta horrible to play.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2014
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  26. RudeStyle

    RudeStyle A year late x D

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    Hi Im rudestyle. I think most points have been made here so im not going over them but i will voice my opinion anyway as a "decent" ( sike am garbage ) player.

    Personally i like the knock off ban, knock off made the tier kind of stale and boring ( You can guarantee knock off somewhere on each team which is boring since thief is fun too.) . Never had a problem with misdreavus but we can put it up for ban if necessary

    and flame body can't deal with knock off users since >30%. Don't remember unreliable odds being a check but o_k ( went over that since it was annoying to read ) But yeah i don't think i will be playing as much lc if it remains.

    so ban pls
     
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  27. Heysup

    Heysup Active Member

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    That logic might bother you because your implications are fairly unrelated to it (ie. I don't imply that at all, in any way). In LC, a metagame where a Pokemon's items are relatively more important than in any other metagame due to mechanics, Knock Off makes it so that you can't just switch a Pokemon into another Pokemon without thinking about whether it's worth the risk of getting an item Knocked Off. This point has nothing to do with offense or stall, both require thought to switch into Knock Off. If you've read other people's posts (like @fitzy's for example) Defensive teams suffer from the lack of Knock Off MORE than offensive teams because they utilize bulky set up sweepers that can't be taken down by defensive Pokemon without Knock Off. Misdreavus is just ridiculous in that game.

    Honestly, if you're looking to make defensive teams more effective, you should probably direct your attention to the insanely powerful wallbreakers in Misdreavus, Meditite, and Murkrow but that's a conversation for another time.

    Gen 5 was not ruled by offense in my experience. How on earth does something like Drilbur becoming a viable support Pokemon if people aren't running things too weak to KO it? And by defensive cores, you mean defensive core, sure. But why don't you take it a step further and say instead of defensive core, just "core" because regen core was more or less the only viable core in that metagame, give or take a few Pokemon (Mienfoo/Slowpoke/Foongus). It was ridiculous I'm sure you can remember.

    I'm convinced people have not had enough experience playing with Knock Off people genuinely think you can just spam it. Especially in a metagame with Pokemon like Murkrow and Fletchling (even Meditite), it's never a good thing to give a free switch to something with such destructive power or U-turn respectively. If you use it once, sure, but if you use it a second time any good player knows you keep switching that same Pokemon into Knock Off. It's a bad strategy and it's very obvious to me that it's simply a theorymon one.

    Mindless switching is not something that should be encouraged, if you want to balance offense vs stall then you should probably look to Pokemon rather than moves. Anyway, this is probably my last post on the matter here. Probably.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
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  28. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    The debate is real up in here...

    Just gonna say that knock off still got rid of berry juice if it didn't activate it~ so hence why mienfoo could knock off something like magnemite (provided it isn't adamant) or dwebble and get rid of the sturdyjuicing shit.

    I'm also gonna go out on a limb here and assume that a majority of you guys havn't even played/tried a well built stall team. They worked just as well in both metas provided you have a sticky hold or knock off absorb poke (ie mienfoo, foongus, trubbish). Seeing as these pokes still see usage in both metas I don't see the problem. They also NEED knock off to function since it rids the team of life orbs/choice items/berry juices/misdreavus and gave way for the late game sweeper to do its job. And before someone says "there is no counter to knock off" I'm gonna restate the argument everyones using: WHAT LILEEP / FERROSEED / CHINCHOU / LICKITUNGARE GOING TO STAY IN ON A KNOCK OFF USER? use some common sense guys :I (prepares to get flamed)

    Shellos @ Eviolite
    Ability: Sticky Hold
    Level: 5
    EVs: 228 HP / 212 Def / 20 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Recover
    - Clear Smog
    Growlithe @ Eviolite
    Ability: Intimidate
    Level: 5
    EVs: 236 HP / 156 Def / 36 SDef / 36 Atk / 36 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Morning Sun
    - Flare Blitz
    - Wild Charge
    Croagunk @ Eviolite
    Ability: Dry Skin
    Level: 5
    EVs: 132 HP / 196 Def / 36 SDef / 108 SAtk / 36 Atk
    Relaxed Nature
    - Vacuum Wave
    - Knock Off
    - Icy Wind
    - Sludge Bomb
    Lickitung @ Eviolite
    Ability: Oblivious
    Level: 5
    EVs: 196 HP / 236 SDef / 76 Def
    Sassy Nature
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Knock Off
    - Ice Beam
    Pawniard @ Eviolite
    Ability: Defiant
    Level: 5
    EVs: 236 Atk / 196 Spd / 36 Def / 36 SDef
    Jolly Nature
    - Iron Head
    - Knock Off
    - Sucker Punch
    - Swords Dance
    Lileep @ Eviolite
    Ability: Storm Drain
    Level: 5
    EVs: 148 HP / 220 Def / 140 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Giga Drain
    - Recover
    - Ancient Power
    - Stealth Rock
    This is a prime example of a defensive team in the knock off meta. Twas made in the gligar meta for a dark horse team by someone on smogon and I gotta say it was great. It used knock off to its advantage and had it own ways to counteract it. Also notice the lack of regen cores :v

    Stall was pretty successful imo. Baton pass/Trick room/weather are some other things that don't normally use knock off and were pretty successful (or just as successful I should say) as they are now. Honestly I think the unoriginality lies in the pokes being used rather than the move itself (hypocracy ftw) but thats just me.

    I say unban knock off~
     
  29. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    So as with the general feel of this thread me and Mylo have decided that Knock off is to stay unbanned in LC. My reasoning is largely unchanged from my post above and Mylo can still post if he wishes. Changes will be added to the server asap.

    If you want a new suspect then use the general thread to suggest them. Next I would think is probably going to be Murkrow but theres time for people to change that.
     
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