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Berry Juice + Swirlix Suspect

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LC' started by fitzy, Mar 14, 2014.

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  1. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    This is pretty long overdue but this is PO where everything takes 5 times longer than expected!

    Berry Juice is being unbanned and Swirlix is going to be added to the banlist ASAP on the server.

    We are in a pretty awkward position where the majority of people haven't been able to test Swirlix in a Berry Juice metagame so can't really comment on if they feel if it is broken or not. Think of it as a starting ban in a Berry Juice metagame. You can talk about what you think about it if berry juice is found to be broken.

    Talk about Berry Juices impact on the XY LC metagame, search for how to get around Berry Juice and decide if you think Berry Juice should be banned from XY LC or not. I'd also like to hear if people think Berry Juice is the problem or Berry Juice + Sturdy if they find it broken.

    Have fun, normal suspect rules apply.
     
  2. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    I really don't see why everything should take so long on PO. We have a smaller community than Smogon which would make me think things would get done faster.

    Onto the actual topic. I've used berry juice smashers in roughly ten matches. I've only lost one. All others have been lopsided victories. That would initially make me think the smashers are broken with berry juice, but, after looking at my matches. Berry Juice didn't really have an effect on the outcome of the match in most cases, especially considering I forgot to put Berry Juice on my Dwebble in about five of the matches.

    Looking at how people react to a sturdy smasher, Berry Juice has minimal effect. From what I've seen, most people with hit a sturdy smasher with a low power or NFE move as to break the sturdy but not activate the Oran Berry/Berry Juice and then hit with a powerful move to KO. A good mon for doing this is Mienfoo, who can tank boosted hits from both smashers and retaliate with a Fake Out to break the Sturdy and a good fighting move such as Drain Punch or High Jump Kick. Its surprisingly easy to check both the sturdy smashers with Mienfoo: 1) Switch in the second you see the smasher 2) Fake Out to break Sturdy 3) KO whilst taking minor damage and recovering pretty much all of it with Drain Punch.

    So before you guys go screaming that Berry Juice is broken, I wan't you to test the smashers with Berry Juice and Oran Berry and see how different they play. It's to early in the suspect to form any definite opinions.
     
  3. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    I must confess I love the Bj meta! Even if its only been a day...

    Quite a few pokes are gonna skyrocket in usage, as well as some lesser seen sets on some already common pokes.

    Munchlax for instance was the best special wall in the tier but had next to no usage because of lack of recovery. Now it gets recovered back to full health at a moments notice with recycle! Bronzor (who probably still wont get used) also gets this, but with more well rounded bulk and acsess to calm mind. In a similar vein Magnemite and trubbish do this but with a sturdy and sticky hold respectively. On the topic of sturdy juicers, I find them to be a bit hard to deal with but the mostnotable ones are walled by something ALL the time. Tirtouga cant break through pivot mienfoo, croagunk (without eq), or sturdy juice magnemite and dwebble cant touch just about any fighting type and is priority weak. Both are also subject to hazards and mold breaker.

    On the topic of popular pokes chinchou can now use berry juice on the eviolite offense set, murkrow can run a sub/bj set, misdreavus can sweep MUCH more easily, pawniard gets a one time recovery item, fletchling gets a meh way to have an item, snubbull gets a one shot recovery item and honedge gets a one shot recovery item.

    And on an ending note I wanna say that as soon as the knock off thing gets fixed it will be even less seemingly broken c:
     
  4. Yagura

    Yagura

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    This is really an interesting suspect. The metagame has been really quiet and calm in the last two months and I'm pretty sure that having Berry Juice in the tier once again and Swirlix being test banned is a good idea to make LC more active again giving it more variety and originality in the play styles!

    **Berry Juice**

    [​IMG]

    Please note that I'm not giving my full opinion about Berry Juice, I'll wait until stuff are clearer and more stable then I'll say what I'm thinking about it.

    In the last gen, Berry Juice was proven to be a really unhealthy item for the metagame; combining it with the Sturdy-Shell Smash combo both Dwebble and Tirtouga get fully healed after their ability Sturdy activates making these two Pokémon benefit from Sturdy twice. It was possible for the two to be stopped with Stealth Rock if you can KO them at 87.5% for Tirtouga and 75% for Dwebble. They were also both checked by priority, but even at -1 these two Pokémon were still sturdy enough to take a hit from a Mach Punch, also don't forget about Tirtouga's Aqua Jet that was a dangerous attack last gen making Turtle able to KO things with priority if they're in low health. In last gen, Magnemite was proven broken with Berry Juice, with Sturdy and Recycle it was a pain to take down and could stall you to death if you don't have a check for it. It has been dealt with Stealth Rock and by Volt Switching into a Pokémon that can KO it.

    But is it the same case in this gen? Is Berry Juice as broken as it was in the last gen? Does it have checks? Yes, it does. In this gen, we have two Pokémon that got unbanned and that check Magnemite, Dwebble and Tirtouga: Meditite and Mienfoo. These two Pokémon have access to Fake Out that allows it to break through Sturdy and KO with Drain Punch/HJK or Bullet Punch:

    Meditite vs Dwebble:

    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 4-5 (19 - 23.8%) -- possible 5HKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    If you're afraid of that really low chance of not KOing with Bullet Punch, you should know that Meditite (if it's EVed enough) it can live Knock Off and Earthquake and KO with Drain Punch:
    +2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 13-16 (68.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 236+ Atk Dwebble Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 12-15 (63.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Mienfoo vs Dwebble:

    236+ Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 3-4 (14.2 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-17 (66.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    If you're afraid of that very low chance of not killing you can use High Jump Kick:
    236+ Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 25-31 (119 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Mienfoo vs Tirtouga:

    236+ Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 3-4 (14.2 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (pretty risky ikr, but Tirtouga has better check that I'll mention in this post)
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 32-38 (152.3 - 180.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Also, don't forget that Mienfoo has access to Taunt so you can use it against both Dwebble and Tirtouga if they didn't set up yet!

    [/HIDE]

    Recycle Magnemite is checked by both Mienfoo and Meditite, they both can Fake Out to break Sturdy and KO with Drain Punch (I think this is really obvious, it doesn't need calcs).

    Also, using hazards like Spikes and Stealth Rock is a decent way to deal with Dwebble, Tirtouga and Magnemite. But Defog is really common this gen so it's not as effective as it was in last gen. One other way to deal with Sturdy-Shell Smash-Berry Juice is Pokémon like Murkrow and Purrloin with Prankster and Thunder Wave, Haze Mukrow and also Encore Prankster Cottonee. Bulky Misdreavus with Will-o-Wisp/Taunt is a counter too.

    By the way, don't think that only Sturdy Pokémon are the one that use Berry Juice. Some bulky Pokémon like Misdreavus, Munchlax, Lickitung.. can use it to make them harder to take down but in most cases Eviolite is a better choice.

    So that was my view towards Berry Juice for now. I don't have a full opinion on it yet so I'm still neutral until the metagame gets more adapted to it!

    **Swirlix**
    [​IMG]

    Ah Swirlix, I remember when this Pokémon was introduced people thought it was a horrible Pokémon but when they knew it has access to Calm Mind/Belly Drum and Unburden people feared it and knew it'll have a huge impact in the metagame.

    Swirlix centralized the metagame, it was really unpredictable because it has two different sets with different effects. Every team had a check for its Calm Mind set and its Belly Drum set variant. Swirlix had three main sets that you can find in the Swirlix analyze, I'll talk about their impact for a bit:

    Belly Drum Swirlix: In paper, a Pokémon with Belly Drum and Unburden seem to be really tough in paper. But when you check Swirlix' moveset you find that it's really small in the physical side with only Play Rough as STAB, Frustration to do some damage to Fire and Poison types and Thief to deal with Honedge. It can also use Flamethrower to deal with Steel Types. It can be checked by Meditite with Fake Out and Bullet Punch, but the problem is if Swirlix has Protect then Meditite will fall. Grimer and Koffing with max defense can take hits from Swirlix and KO with Gunk Shot and Sludge Bomb respectively. Murkrow All this proves that Swirlix is dangerous in its Belly Drum set.

    Calm Mind: Unlike Swirlix' Physical moveset, its Special moveset is really wide (Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Surf, Psychic etc..). After few CM and thank to its wide special moveset it can sweep through teams. A huge problem about this set is that you can't predict the moves. Foongus can check it but if it has Psychic or Flamethrower it wouldn't. Making this set very dangerous and unhealthy for the current metagame.

    Calm Mind and Cotton Guard: This set is hell for a lot of the LC Community, once it sets up and you don't have a counter then it's pretty much gg. The problem about this set is that it's hard to set up. Nothing can beat this except Skrelp, Foongus, Tentacool and Murkrow with Haze. Once you think you damaged it, it regains health. So this set imo is the most broken one.

    Conclusion about Swirlix: Swirlix is really unhealthy for the metagame, it has many sets thus it's unpredictable therefore you need to brace yourself for any possible set which makes you have a check for every set in your team. So in my opinion, keep Swirlix banned.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2014
  5. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    Time to address the impact of Berry Juice I've seen so far.

    General:
    The tier has changed quite a bit in the past day, more so and in a different direction than I had initially thought. My get reaction to this suspect was to think everyone would just spam the sturdy smashers and it would be sheer chaos, but, after some time both using and playing against sturdy smashers, they are not that much different to play against than before. Berry Juice has breathed new life into the tier by getting rid of the stale everything's the same teams. It has messed with the use of many things in LC. I'm seeing more and more Croagunks on the ladder, Murkrow and Misdreavus are taking dives in use, and those stupid teams that were built around the same four Pokemon are practically gone. The teams I see now are much more diverse than those of a few days ago. I've seen hazard stacking teams, weather teams, and stall teams, all of which were completely absent before.

    The smashers themselves are managed solidly by some of the dominant fighters of the tier, Mienfoo, Meditite, and Timburr. All three of which can tank boosted hits and retaliate. If played right, it isn't hard to beat the smashers without activating Berry Juice using any of these Pokemon, except Timburr.

    Timburr:
    +2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 13-16 (54.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    196+ Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    196+ Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 7-10 (33.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
    (9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11)
    196+ Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 16-21 (66.6 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 10-12 (41.6 - 50%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
    196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 8-10 (38 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    196+ Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    196+ Atk Timburr Ice Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
    196+ Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 14-20 (66.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO[/HIDE]
    Mienfoo:
    +2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-17 (66.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-9 (42.8 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +2 236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-15 (71.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 3-4 (14.2 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 11-13 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 2-2 (9.5 - 9.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 3-4 (14.2 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 32-38 (152.3 - 180.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO[/HIDE]
    Meditite:
    +2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Meditite: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    +2 236+ Atk Dwebble Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Meditite: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 10-14 (47.6 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 2-3 (9.5 - 14.2%) -- possible 7HKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 4-5 (19 - 23.8%) -- possible 5HKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 16-21 (84.2 - 110.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Meditite: 11-13 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 9-12 (47.3 - 63.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 2-3 (9.5 - 14.2%) -- possible 7HKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 30-36 (142.8 - 171.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 4-5 (19 - 23.8%) -- possible 5HKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 44-54 (209.5 - 257.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO[/HIDE]
    Even if the smashers get going against your team, there is no reason they can't be stopped by any of these three. These three are arguably the best checks to the smashers because Drain Punch lets them beat the smashers and recover off most of the damage taken. In Mienfoo's case, Regenerator give enough recovery to let Mienfoo return to the battle with full health after defeating a smasher and switching out, effectively producing a check for both smashers at the same time in one Pokemon. Switching in to one already set up is pretty much impossible, but it fairly easy to switch in on one that hasn't set up yet. Typically a smasher will smash immediately giving you a free turn to safely switch in your check, if they don't, it doesn't matter as the smashers wont take down much without smashing, and these checks can still switch in and tank unboosted hits just fine. Don't think these are the only checks to the smashers. There are others like Honedge who is shaky on Tirtouga, Croagunk who will check both so long as they don't carry Earthquake, and Lileep for Tirtouga, who can recover back almost all the damage taken by spamming Giga Drain. Lileep and Croagunk's abilities let them switch in with some good predictions on Tirtouga.

    Honedge:
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 8-9 (38 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    (7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9)
    196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 7-10 (33.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 6-7 (28.5 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
    196+ Atk Honedge Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO[/HIDE]
    Croagunk:
    +2 236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 15-20 (62.5 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 212 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO
    +2 236+ Atk Dwebble Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 7-9 (29.1 - 37.5%) -- 48.9% chance to 3HKO
    +2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 212 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 4-5 (16.6 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO
    108+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. -1 0 HP / 36 SpD Dwebble: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    28 Atk Croagunk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
    28 Atk Croagunk Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 7-10 (33.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 212 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    28 Atk Croagunk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 59.1% chance to 3HKO
    108+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Tirtouga: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    108+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. -1 0 HP / 116 SpD Tirtouga: 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
    (9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11)
    108+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. -1 0 HP / 116 SpD Tirtouga: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)[/HIDE]
    Lileep:
    0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. -1 0 HP / 116 SpD Tirtouga: 52-64 (247.6 - 304.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 15-18 (57.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +4 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 22-27 (84.6 - 103.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO[/HIDE]
    Now on the flip side, the smashers can break their way through almost everything. Shell Smash takes their offenses to sky high levels and lets them break down even the strongest walls like Porygon. As with Clamperl in gen 5, Shell Smash users make it extremely difficult to run stall (not that it wasn't already hard) and can really bring pain to defensive teams. Last gen I argued that Clamperl was cancerous to the tier, mostly because it forced you to run HO. This gen I find things slightly different. Mienfoo and Timburr are both perfectly viable on defensive and balanced teams, so these smashers do not kill an entire style of team this time. To my surprise, since Berry Juice was released yesterday, I've seen more people building balanced teams than HO, as, with the ban of Swirlix, balanced teams have a bit easier go of it now as Mienfoo handles the smashers just fine.

    Berry Juice carries effects outside of the smashers as well. The most notable user of Berry Juice that is not a sturdy smasher is Magnemite. Magnemite was blessed with the return of Berry Juice and the return of Sturdy Juice Recycle. This set has breathed new life into defensive teams by being insanely hard to kill. Essentially, Magnemite now has a recovery option that lets it heal off all damage taken. While this makes Magnemite much harder to kill, it does not make it broken in any way. Magnemite is easily checked by numerous fighters who can break sturdy with a weak move such as Fake Out, and proceed to KO with a strong fighting STAB. Magnemite also hates hazards as it makes it much harder to start the cycle of Juice recovery without sturdy.

    Stuff that beats Magnemite:
    236 SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Magnemite: 2-3 (10.5 - 15.7%) -- possible 7HKO
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Magnemite: 24-30 (126.3 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    236 SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 212 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
    108+ SpA Croagunk Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 8-10 (42.1 - 52.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
    (8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)
    236 SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
    196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Magnemite: 9-11 (47.3 - 57.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
    196+ Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Magnemite: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    108+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    236 SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 9-12 (47.3 - 63.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Magnemite: 3-4 (15.7 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
    196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Magnemite: 32-42 (168.4 - 221%) -- guaranteed OHKO[/HIDE]

    Will finish this out later. Have to leave so this will get an extension when I get back.
     
  6. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    Forgot to comment on swirlix :v

    ...too bad theres nothing I can say that hasn't already been said.

    Long story short: It has three sets that are wildly different and not obvious in team preview (most of the time). The CM set is the most common and has the most versatility, allowing you to hit a majority of your would be counters. Problem is its weak to status, meditite and there is always something to wall it. The former two problems can however be remedied by using substitute. This also allows for you to take the unburden boost yourself, rather than have to wait for the opponent to do it for you. This is swirlixs most unpredictable set as you have no idea the coverage it is running.

    Belly drum is the big one to prep for. Rather than wait for you to activate unburden, swirlix takes the boost and proceeds to sweep. A good majority of the tier cant stomache a return, much less a play rough. Obviously this sets fatal flaw is lack of coverage. Ferroseed walls this to hell and back, koffing, grimer, slowpoke and physically defensive lileep can take this set on from full HP and meditite revenges this easily. The thing is that swirlix still has that last moveslot. Thus it can hit ferroseed with a flamethrower, aromatherapy off the paralysis or run protect or sub to stop medi from revenging easily.

    Finally is CG CM. This set is ridiculously hard to stop once it gets going. Draining kiss stops you from doing any real damage to it and in general this set makes me want to cut a nun.

    Another thing to note is that the knock off buff also assists swirlixs sweeping ability as it also activates unburden allowing for a free activation on things like non poison jab timburr and mienfoo.

    Keep the shit banned plz.
     
  7. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Swirlix base is covered pretty well, I'll just say for reasons known and previously stated I would argue to keep it banned. (It's lazy, sorry, but really what need be said has been said)

    Berry Juice; when coming into this suspect I was foolishly convinced that Berry Juice would not fit into the metagame. I was incorrect, after play-testing the meta I feel that Berry Juice does add another level to the tier, it's no miracle fix but it's a significant step in the right direction, the Smashers I feared have a number of common and playable checks, other Sturdy users are a similar story. Defensively Berry Juice is usually similar to or slightly better than Eviolite in defensive capacity, depending on the Pokémon and what you want to beat with it (Missy will rip holes in Evioless Timburr, but Berry Juice stops any Multi-hit attacks cold (RIP Shellder).) If the meta changes more Berry Juice could cause some minor bumps in the road later, but talking about the current meta, it's absolutely fine imo.
     
  8. Yagura

    Yagura

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    So, after playing some battles in the ladder using Berry Juice abusers like Tirtouga, Dwebble, Magnemite.. As expected, Berry Juice turned out to be checkable by a lot of common Pokémon that I stated in my post above, so in my opinion Berry Juice should stay unbanned.

    My opinion about Swirlix didn't change, it should stay banned.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  9. RudeStyle

    RudeStyle A year late x D

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    Swirlix is the cotton candy of doom, it's too unpredictable, "Is it belly drum?? or Calm Mind..? What does it carry?" it should stay banned

    Berry Juice is fun to use, and isn't dreadfully hard to deal with. ( Just make sure you're prepared for it obviously. ) So It's fine being allowed in lc

    no point posting walls of writing when everything has already been said. n_n
     
  10. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    And in the last post I forgot to comment on berry juice ;-; gr8 job me

    The shit is fun. It makes drifloon viable :D

    Tirt, dwebble and magnemite (as soon as that stupid glitch gets fixed) are all crippled by knock off and are beaten by some rather common pokes.

    Other uncommon pokes getting slightly more or new use: ALL STURDY JUICERS(Onix), bronzor, trubbish, munchlax, DRIFLOON, zigzagoon and tyrunt

    It should stay~
     
  11. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Gonna go ahead and close this down. Swirlix will remain banned, and Berry Juice will remain unbanned.
    Thanks for your participation
     
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