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Suspect Discussion: Yanma

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LC' started by Weavile, Dec 1, 2013.

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  1. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    [​IMG]???????

    Welcome to Yanma's suspect discussion, discuss Yanma's impact on the XY LC metagame, search for checks and counters to Yanma and decide if you think Yanma should be banned from XY LC or not. Suspect rules as usual, as with normal forum rules.
     
  2. Yagura

    Yagura

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    In my opinion Yanma is pretty dangerous at the moment, but the only set I find a problem against is the Speed Boost set for the following reasons:

    - After a single Speed Boost, it outspeeds every scarfer in the metagame; that means that Chinchou, Joltik and other Volt Switcher or Fire scarfers like Larvesta no more are the best checks for it in LC.
    - Yanma has a decent 75 SAtk, combined with Speed Boost it becomes a dangerous sweeper 2HKOing nearly the whole metagame.
    - Currently SB Yanma has no check except Munchlax. Bulky Ghost-types like Misdreavus and Duskull might be also decent checks for it (Except if Yanma has the uncommon Shadow Ball.)

    BUT, Coumpoundeyes Yanma got kinda nerfed in this generation with the sleep counter not getting reset after switching. And like the last generation, its checks are still viables like Scarf Chinchou and Vital Spirit Elekid.

    So in my opinion, Yanma can run two sets the SB and the Compoundeyes. The first one is a HUGE problem for this metagame, the second is good but not as the SB set. I don't know if this is possible but my opinion is: Ban only Speed Boost Yanma.

    If only an ability can't be banned on a Pokémon then I'll go with banning Yanma. But in my opinion (even though we're only suspecting Yanma here), the ability Speed Boost must be banned from the LC metagame.
     
  3. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Last gen I defended Yanma for it had a number of reliable checks that beat it pretty consistently, especially with its hatred of rocks, however this gen I believe most of these checks have been shot down a few pegs by the omnipresence of Knock Off. Scraggy, Mienfoo, Vullaby, Anorith, Croagunk, Timburr, Dwebble etc. If Porygon, Chinchou, Frillish, Magnemite or whatever check loses its Eviolite its ability to check Yanma is severely hampered, Mienfoo especially can Knock Off and U-Turn away from (or kill) any of Yanma's checks, but any of the other Pokémon listed can still Knock Off a Pokémon or two if played well. Simply put Yanma was a good cleaner last gen, but this gen it can become almost unbeatable in that regard through efficient use of Knock Off (or just spamming it). Crippling Yanma's checks now is simply too easy in my opinion.

    Also I am 100% confident in saying that Compoundeyes Yanma is the better one overall, Speed Boost has the edge in some situations but I find the average game gives favour to the reliable Hypnosis over the additional speed. That said the Speed Boost removes its ability to be checked by a lot of Scarfers, which are a threat on top of bulky mon that Knock Off will struggle more to meet with.
     
  4. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    Yanma. It's the fastest thing in the tier, has speed boost, has compound eyes hypnosis, has an enormous move pool with great offenses, and can run so many different sets that it is truly impossible to counter. The introduction of Defog on many great LC mons such as Murkrow this generation has made the use of Yanma much easier. In gen five there were only a few spinners in the tier, most of which weren't very good in the slightest, making it difficult to keep Yanma from losing half its health when switching in. The newfound presence of Knock Off has made walling Yanma much harder, if not impossible as every one of Yanma's non-scarfed check's from gen 5 cannot check Yanma without their Eviolites. Even the mighty Munchlax can be 2HKOd without his Eviolite to the modest speed boosting sets.
    240+ SpA Life Orb Yanma Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Munchlax: 13-17 (43.33 - 56.66%) -- 59.38% chance to 2HKO

    Yanma is the most efficient user of speed boost in the tier, capable of out speeding/tying the entire scarfed tier after one boost. Thanks to speed boost, it can forgo a speed boosting nature, and still not have to worry about being outpaced. Yanma can reach an incredible 18 special attack, that, when given the right move set, is stopped by nothing not named Munchlax. Yanma can also reach a great 17 attack, and be a decent Choice Band user. U-turn does ~50% damage to Munchlax, thus removing its effectiveness as a check (ya I know U-turn switches you out, but CB yan is strong). On it's vastly superior special side, it has two great STABs in Bug Buzz and Air Slash, with the former now hitting through substitutes. It has great Life Orb and Choice Specs sets. Yanma can run a variety of hidden powers or moves such as Giga Drain, Psychic, and Shadow Ball. Every check to one set is beaten in by another set, which forces you to run at least two checks to make sure that a Yanma won't run rampant through your team. A team with good Knock Off support can effectively cripple everything that would otherwise stand a chance at tanking hits from

    Compoundeyes Yanma is one of the most annoying Pokémon in the tier. Yanma only needs to drop a small amount of power to keep its top tier speed and have a Hypnosis with the accuracy of Stone Edge. Compoundeyes Yanma can muscle its way through most mons bulky enough to tank a few hits from the speed boost sets with the free turns granted by sleep. Most of the checks to this set are not particularly good nor something I would ever use aside from Munchlax and Chinchou. Compoundeyes Yanma can be revenged by any 14+ speed scarfer with a move strong enough to OHKO, however, if it is ever brought in on something non-scarfed, there is a good chance something on your team is sleeping for the next few turns.

    Overall Yanma's speed + good offenses combined with gen 6 changes to the metagame break it in XY LC. Ban Yanma entirely.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  5. Mylo Xyloto

    Mylo Xyloto if your world falls apart, i'd start a riot

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    Finally posting whee ~

    Speed Boost Yanma is more of a problem imo. The thing about the speed boost set is that it only has defensive checks, since it cant be revenged with scarfers. Specially defensive pokemon like Munchlax, Missy and Porygon can easily tank a couple of hit before retaliating with their STABs. Don't get me wrong, Compound Eyes Yanma is still a threat, but its harder for it to disrupt the opposing team with the sleep mechanics changed. It can no longer shut one pokemon down for the entire match like it did last gen (except Sleep Talk/Insomnia users obv).

    The Knock Off buff, as Weavile mentioned, makes Yanma much more dangerous. Bulky pokemon without their beloved Eviolite, become vunerable. Easily falling to 2 Bug Buzzes after SR. Stealth Rock, Yanma's arch-enemy, now has yet another way to be removed --Defog. Defog can easily be used on Vulluby or Stunky, clearing the path for Yanma to switch in without fear of losing 50% of its HP. This makes it harder to check Yanma as it can now safely escape from a pokemon like Porygon and bring in an appropriate check/counter. Then later wreck havoc with Yanma again.

    Looking at checks, we obviously see specially defensive pokemon like Munchlax, Lickitung and Porygon. All of them have recovery, whether its Rest, rcover or wish, the have it. So they'll be staying to block off Yanma. The latter 2, however, fall to Hynosis Yanma. Then there's pokemon like Archen and Tyrunt that rely on their typing to check Yanma. The former having Roost for recovery. Both fall to Hypnosis Yanma though. Strong priority almost always does the job. Due to Yanma's frailty, it can be easily dealt with priority. Like the Fake Out + Bullet Punch combo form Meditite etc. If Yanma uses Shadow Ball to hit Misdreavus as its coverage move then pokemon like Magnemite can take Yanma on. If lacking Shadow Ball, Missy can take it on. Scarf pokemon, like Chinchou, can prey on Hypnosis Yanma. At the end Hypnosis Yanma can only Sleep 1 pokemon with Sleep Clause. When playing carefully you can use this against it.

    I have never had a problem with Yanma this gen. I'm happy with any choice made on Yanma's tiering.
     
  6. Poli

    Poli Member

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    Yanma:

    -Good stats: it's of the fastest pokes in the tier (it ties with Diglett, Voltorb and Elekid) and has high offenses

    -2 great abilities in Compoundeyes and Speed Boost

    While Coumpoundeyes lets Yanma put to sleep a check/counter it makes it vulnerable to revengekilling from any Scarfer hitting 14 Spd and tbh the new (old in a way) sleep mechanics really don't make Sleep that invalidating anymore. With Speed Boost Yanma becomes even more dangerous it basically means that you cannot revengekill it with a scarfer (not reliably at least), and the only remaining checks/counters are pokes like Lickitung, Munchlax, Porygon and Mantyke. All these pokes can take Yanma thanks to Eviolite, what changed this gen is that Knock Off isn't only an utility move but a really good option possessing good Bp, it's really easy to spam on random switches and it basically cripples most pokes bar Sticky Holders (Grimer, Gulpin, Shellos, Trubbish). Having a Knock Offer in your team isn't even that hard since a lot of good pokes learn it (Mienfoo, Scraggy, Lickitung, Vullaby, Tirtouga, Dwebble, etc...). Just other 2 cents about Yanma: its typing used to be a sort of curse for its 4x Rock weakness!! This gen removing the Rocks from the field is really easy Imo considering that some Defoggers are really bulky, others are fast and some others aren't even weak to SR (Finneon, Piplup, Stunky, Archen, Drifloon, Ducklett, Hoothoot, Murkrow, Pidgey, Rufflet, Spearow, Starly, Taillow, Vullaby, Wingull, Zubat, Yanma), let's not forget that Drilbur used to spin pretty decently.

    Despite everything I'm a bit conflicted about Yanma, a couple of days ago I would have said Ban without much thinking but right now I feel that some pokes like Mantyke, Porygon, Munchlax, Lickitung even Misdreavus do pretty well vs it, gonna edit this soon

    Here i think i'll paste some calcs later

    It 2HKOs everything with Rocks up or a bit of prior damage if the target has lost its Eviolite, otherwise you know the pokes living 2 hits

    Ban Imo because assuming you have Eviolite is harder this gen and because of Defog too maybe

    Editing again because I can't decide... .-. I know it 2HKOs everything but I'm not sure if it's a really good poke or a broken one, there are so many other pokes able of 2HKOing everything with the support that everybody is pointing out (Knock Off spam + at least SR) and I don't think we should ban all these pokes

    I'm sorry if I changed my mind after so much time but hey do whatever you want with Yanma
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  7. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    To put it simply, I think Yanma is ban worthy.

    Life orb sets can 2HKO anything in the tier with rocks in play, chinchou included, except for munchlax, who could lose when knock offed.
    Hypnosis, which has good accuracy with compound eyes, also shuts down at least one check and gives yanma a lot of space to manouver along with the added ease of getting rid of rocks this gen.

    I know you'll all be saying 'The 2HKO on X is unlikely, even with rocks', to that I say, factor in the chance of a special defense fall from bug buzz, or a flinch from air slash, both are reasonably likely, sitting at 20% and 30% respectively.

    Although, in the end, my main thoughts on why yanma should be banned is the fact it has a rather accurate sleep move and it's pretty damn well the fastest thing in the tier. That makes it very lethal, being able to shut down bulky checks and outspeed the rest.

    Ban it entirely
     
  8. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I think Yanma should be banned. The Life Orb Speed Boost set can 2HKO virtually everything in the tier with Rocks, and on top of that it's practically impossible to stop. Even with a Modest nature it still hits 19 speed, so at +1 it outruns all but the very fastest Scarfers. It X4 resists Mach Punch, and is bulky enough to take most priority moves not named Ice Shard. Not to mention the Speed Boost set should always use Protect, which foils Fake Out. The Compoundeyes set is incredibly annoying as well, since you're practically forced to Sleep fodder something (unless you have a Pokémon with Vital Spirit/Insomnia).

    Ban it
     
  9. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    2ko-ing everything isn't that great though as it misses many key ohkoes and is often ohkoed back. also it can't just switch out of match ups thanks to rocks taking half of its hp each time. I don't usually have trouble with it but hey ban if you want. It can also be dealt with by subbing when it protects (sub mienfoo=dead yanma).
     
  10. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Why would it need to Protect vs Mienfoo. It can just kill it. Ok you might fear Scarf, but why would you bring Yanma in on a scarf Mienfoo locked into Stone Edge?
     
  11. Poli

    Poli Member

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    I think he meant Fake Out but 65 45 bulk isn't too bad, it's not Carvanha
     
  12. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    yes protecting the fake out. if you don't protect on fake outs you die to life orb damage and other priority rather quickly. also id appreciate it if you could not be condescending in your arguments. also mienfoo isn't obviously an optimal counter I'm just saying that its possible. all i am saying is that many things yanma is able to 2ko are able to ohko back due to its frailty.
     
  13. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    That was not my intention (to be condescending), I apologise for that. Ok, let's say you have Fake Out and Sub (the stats don't even show a Mienfoo having the move sub, regardless of having Fake Out too). You play a 50/50, you predict right with the Sub, you get to use Knock Off on Yanma for about 50-60% iirc. Then get outsped next turn. If you lose you die. For Fake Out: If you win you get; 252 Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 5-7 (21.7 - 30.4%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO. If you lose you get outsped and killed after a turn is wasted (potentially Speed Boost but I think it's less threatening). Yanma beats/forces out Mienfoo in every one of those situations unless rocks are up, then it's only 3/4. You have to run Rock Slide(or SE)/Sub/Fake Out on your Mienfoo to win all the time, and nobody does that.

    2KO is fine when situations like this are common, it'll tank one hit, it has to get a kill in this scenario unless you manage to switch to a scarf user on a resisted Air Slash or Protect, then it can just Protect and being in something that beats the Scarfer's move without prediction. Sure coming in is costly when rocks are around, but I've run Vullaby as Defog support and it's pretty effective in most games, you could still spin with Drilbur, they're a factor, but less than they were last gen.
     
  14. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    i like staryu over drillbur as a spinner personally but thats just me. i used it at showdown. not here. I was checking out berry juice (horribly broken might i add) also my point was just that you can sub on protect a lot of the timeto help wear it down. and that while it 2koes most things, many of those things can ohko in return due to its frailty on the lorb set.
     
  15. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    (21:06) Weavile: Anyway y good plan
    (21:06) Weavile: Also
    (21:07) Weavile: Yanma ban y/n?
    (21:08) fitzyhbbe: erm
    (21:08) fitzyhbbe: for the same reason I've not posted in suspect yet
    (21:08) fitzyhbbe: I'm really torn
    (21:09) Weavile: Personally I am a little more ban than non-ban
    (21:10) Weavile: and the opinions of people in the suspect sway me
    (21:10) Weavile: to vote ban
    (21:10) Weavile: Not their reasoning so much as
    (21:10) Weavile: pretty much everyone thinks ban
    (21:10) fitzyhbbe: I think a lot of people reasoning is off
    (21:10) fitzyhbbe: sr is not easy to keep off
    (21:10) Weavile: I agree
    (21:11) Weavile: It's
    (21:11) Weavile: easier than it was last gen though
    (21:11) fitzyhbbe: and knock off buff doesn't mean you take off eviolites from 2-3 mons
    (21:11) Weavile: not a lot easier, stuff like Staryu has gotten worse
    (21:11) Weavile: but a bit
    (21:11) Weavile: I admit, pretty much every post in that thread, mine included is flawed or lazy
    (21:11) fitzyhbbe: but I get that it has both completly swept me with just a little luck
    (21:12) fitzyhbbe: and I've swept others with that same bit of luck
    (21:12) Weavile: See
    (21:12) Weavile: I get that once you remove counter/checks any mon is dangerous
    (21:13) Weavile: but I think if a mon becomes nearly impossible to beat (even with great cost)
    (21:13) Weavile: It can be problematic
    (21:16) fitzyhbbe: it's not that bad
    (21:17) fitzyhbbe: The sleep flip is whats making me even think
    (21:18) fitzyhbbe: it deserves to stay
    (21:18) Weavile: I am not a fan of flips
    (21:19) Weavile: especially
    (21:19) Weavile: 60-40 ones
    (21:19) Weavile: or 80-20
    (21:19) fitzyhbbe: 78-22 :p
    (21:19) Weavile: same shit
    (21:25) Weavile: Do you think
    (21:25) Weavile: you'll come to a decision before monday?
    (21:26) fitzyhbbe: well I can't see myself thinking it's not broken
    (21:26) fitzyhbbe: as much as it really is BL
    (21:27) Weavile: So you happy with closing it and banning?
    (21:29) fitzyhbbe: mind if I quote this convo?
    (21:29) Weavile: no problem[/HIDE]

    And with that yanma is banned from XY LC. Ladder will be updated shortly.
     
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