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Suspect Discussion: Gligar

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LC' started by Weavile, Nov 10, 2013.

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  1. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Welcome to the first LC suspect for XY. Who else but Gligar would be our first discussion point.

    Discuss Gligar's impact on the metagame, try to find checks and counters to Gligar, finally use your knowledge and the points raised in the thread to formulate an opinion of ban or no ban on Gligar. If you think your points are self evident, evidence them anyway.

    Normal forum and suspect rules apply. Happy arguing.
     
  2. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Well, here we are. We all know the fearsome power of AcroGligar and how it sweeps metas with no fucks given, but our new beast is Knock-Off Gligar since Flying Gem is banned, with Knock Off's buff, it is not only a useful move for removing items but it's also a reliable attacking move with pretty decent coverage and power. Feats like this;

    +2 252 Atk (custom) Punishment (100 BP) vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 22-26 (78.57 - 92.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (A little more powerful than Knock Off but literally same damage for 99% of calcs).

    With a coverage move that removes items is pretty silly, even when Gligar's not going for a sweep it can simply cripple any check it has with Knock Off and deal with it later with a powerful STAB EQ. It's also impossible to use something like Intimidate Snubull to force Gligar down a few pegs if it's already set up, as Hyper Cutter prevents attack loss. Gligar also packs one hell of a defensive typing, with resistances or immunities to Fighting-, Bug-, Ground-, Electric- and Poison-type attacks, these useful resistances, combined with its ample 65/105/65 bulk allow it to set up on a whole host of threats, like Honedge, Mienfoo (unless it's a HP Ice one!!), Drilbur and a whole load of defensive mon like Ferroseed.
    [secret]236+ Atk Life Orb Drilbur Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite : 6-8 (26.08 - 34.78%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO,
    252+ Atk Archen Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite : 7-10 (30.43 - 43.47%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO, this is also a more powerful attack than Honedge's Iron Head.
    196+ Atk Snubbull Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite : 7-10 (30.43 - 43.47%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO (stronger than Play Rough, which it uses now)[/secret]

    Now on-to defensive/support Gligar, it has access to a useful and effective support move-pool, most prominently including; Knock Off, U-Turn, Stealth Rocks, Roost and Baton Pass, but also featuring Defog, Taunt and Tailwind. These moves give Gligar a variety of secondary roles to take up and make people's lives hell, it can run a full defensive EV spread and take full advantage of these support moves, while walling some top threats. Its Immunity ability can also help in these roles, making it immune to Toxic from something like Lickitung. Seeing as these sets don't tend to need Hyper Cutter as much.
    [secret]236+ Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 156 Def Eviolite : 9-12 (34.61 - 46.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    236 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo Stone Edge vs. 236 HP / 156 Def Eviolite : 6-9 (23.07 - 34.61%) -- 3.27% chance to 3HKO
    +4 236+ Atk Drilbur Rock Slide vs. 236 HP / 156 Def Eviolite : 11-14 (42.3 - 53.84%) -- 30.47% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Huge Power Shroomish Zen Headbutt vs. 236 HP / 156 Def Eviolite : 9-12 (34.61 - 46.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Gave it Psychic type, Shroomish has same base Att as Meditite)[/secret]

    As for checks/counters to Gligar, I am a believer that things with Knock Off/U-Turn combo don't really get countered, so checks are what I'm after. With no more Acro something like Mienfoo can run HP Ice specifically to take on Gligar, and Ice Punch on Meditite, Snubull and the likes also dig Gligar a grave, but as for switch-ins or solid checks of any kind, I really do struggle to find any outside of something like what Shroomish can do. Gets 2KO'd by Knock Off and EQ in sequence the vast majority of the time of the time at +2 without Rocks and doesn't OHKO Gligar back, and if it's Oran Acro Gligar (which isn't bad at all) Shroomish is toast. Not to mention Shroomish is kind of bad. Something like Scarf Snover can come in on SD or EQ and force Gligar out with a threat of Blizzard, but if it comes in on Knock Off, or U-Turn from a support set, it's going to face a nasty loss of item and huge chunk of damage, or an advantageous switch for Gligar with a large damage chunk. While revenging is a more valid argument in LC and should be considered, Gligar has no reason to stay in on something that will revenge it unless it's on raw HO and it's weakened, where either it dies, or something else does. This is because even a severely weakened Gligar can still serve to remove one Eviolite from any Pokémon and deal a bit of damage. This is an important role that it can play, its high speed allows it to do this on numerous occasions.

    I have a pretty strong idea where I stand on Gligar but I guess I could be swain, so I'll reserve "ban or not" for later.

    PS: Sorry for double posting straight after OP but I have time to write this now so I thought I may as well
     
  3. Samphire

    Samphire Too much hard work!

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    Gligar is broken, especially the SD variety.
    Using SD and Knock Off it can 2HKO most of the metagame, and Knock off is not even its strongest attack.
    Its max 19 speed means that most possible counters (Staryu, Buizel), are in the same speed tier meaning that it is a stroke of luck to be able to outspeed and KO.
    Choiced users (such as Scarf chinchou) suffer from the fact they could get KOed on a switch-in, and due to the predictability, the opposing gligar can easily be switched out in order to bring in something that can tank an ice beam, meaning the whole dance of getting the scarf user back into play has to be re-enacted again.

    Although my experimentation as yet is limited (due to a lot of angry shouting because of said mon), I can only hypothesise that a gimmick can counter Gligar, such as an HP Ice Yanma (yet to try this, but it would outspeed, and should have the special investment to OHKO), or using something that has already set up with defence investment (eg. Bulk Up users like Timburr with access to an ice move such as Ice Punch), but even they are susceptible to coming in on, or being the victim of a knock off if they switch in on that move, or fail to OHKO.

    As I start to experiment I shall add in calculations and strategies that may or may not work, but these are my initial thoughts on it. Gligar is a dangerous mon which unbalances the tier, and leads to using fire against fire. If you ain't got a Gligar, you're gonna have a tough time.
     
  4. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Note: Going to be talking about defensive set, I don't really have an opinion on offensive gligar yet.

    So I think we can all agree that the reason why none-acro gligar is being suspected is Knock Off.

    Talking from the defensive sets prospective you can quite easily knock off an item then U-turn out multiple times per battle due to gligars speed + bulk combo.

    Is this broken alone? I feel like this really is borderline due to how necessary eviolite is to most of the tier. Without eviolite a lot of things just get outpowered and walked past by the sweepers in the tier. Without your opponents having an item, while you have 1.5* boost to defenses the game is going to get a lot easier.

    Can it do this significantly better than other pokemon in the tier? Talking about pokemon that use this combo defensively there are IMO there are 3 others - Archen, Mienfoo and Vullaby all capable of pulling off a similar role to gligar. What separates gligar from these 3 pokemon is I feel the 19 speed that it hits. It's so vital that it can speed tie the 19 speed pokemon as that lets you do stuff like hit before burns from missy.

    I'm leaning towards wanting to ban gligar, however I want to play more before deciding this.
     
  5. Mylo Xyloto

    Mylo Xyloto if your world falls apart, i'd start a riot

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    Gligar is probably the pokemon that we all fear. A pokemon that can rip defensive cores appart with Knock Off or sweep you clean with Swords Dance. It boasts with great bulk and typing, as well as awesome offensive stats and movepool. The combo of great speed and bulk in tandem with Knock Off is just so good. With 2 cool abilities, Hyper Cutter and Immunity, Gligar can doge certain roadblocks that often stop physical sweeps.

    Probably the deadliest set is the Swords Dance set. Now that Acro got nerf'd, Gligar now runs Knock Off which is really good. With Knock Off it just smashes its normal checks, namely Slowpoke and Bronzor. Using Batton Pass as the 4th moves makes Gligar much more harder to check since now you have to deal with a Murkrow or Carvanha at +2. Easily escaping from checks, and coming back later to finish the job himself. Gligar, with its great bulk and typing, doesn't have trouble setting up a Swords Dance at all.

    Onto checks. With Gligar now using Knock Off, its really hard checking it. Since if you switch into a Knock Off and you are slower, you're getting KOed. Pokemon like Frillish and Slowpoke can't even switch into Gligar anymore with the use of Knock Off rising. To check Gligar I've been using Icy Wind Murkrow. Murkrow resists Knock Off and is immune to Earthquake and can easily KO Gligar with Icy Wind. Revenge killing seems like the best option in killing it, but sacrificing a pokemon just sucks. And Gligar can also switch out to handle something like Scarf Chinchou or Scarf Rufflet. Ensuring it doesnt get a chance to set up could also work, using gimmicks like Icy Wind Croagunk or Hidden Power Ice Mienfoo.

    At the end I can't see that much discussion on a no ban here, but yea Ban please.
     
  6. Yagura

    Yagura

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    Gligar has a huge impact on the tier atm. It can play the role of a physical attacker and a physical tank:


    Gligar as an attacker:

    It hits the 19 speed outspeeding 95% of non-scarfers in the metagame. It tanks a hit then it sets up with a Swords Dance it ends up being a dangerous sweeper that also deals with the recently test-unbanned Mienfoo and Meditite. With the boost that Knock Off got it can remove Eviolites off the Physical walls and end them with a powerful Earthquake, for example:

    +2 236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferroseed: 171-202 (58.56 - 69.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    236 +2 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Slowpoke (+Def) : 36,72% - 43,23% (3 hits to KO) (Kills after a Knock Off)

    Gligar as a tank:

    With an Impish nature, it hits 22 Defense without an Eviolite making it the best physical wall in the metagame, nothing can beat it except a strong Ice/Water move by a special attacker. It can stall with Toxic/Roost and hit with a STAB Earthquake. It also had Defog that got blessed by the ability to remove hazards.

    Checks for Gligar:

    Gligar has counters that can be counted on the fingers of one hand :Scarfed Ice types are a big problem for Gligar and check it well, the very rare Unaware Wooper may be also a good check.

    So in my opinion, Gligar should banned basically because of the Knock Off that can ruin teams and the small amount of counters for it in the metagame.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
  7. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Hopping on the Gligar ban bus.

    Defensively or offensively, it's just way too good. Especially with the buff to Knock Off, and the fact that Steel no longer resists Dark means that it can now blow straight through Bronzor, which was about the only Pokémon that could wall it.

    Ban.
     
  8. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    Pretty much sums it up. There's no one true check or counter. The best way to handle Gligar is to revenge with a scarfed mon, but if Gligar is behind a sub it really can run through a team.

    Ban
     
  9. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    Gligar is without a doubt the strongest thing in the tier, its by no means as broken as Kanga was in inverse, but its still way to powerful for the current LC meta. Gligar's stats are among the absolute highest in the tier, hitting what is considered good levels for defensive stats with no investment, 2nd highest speed tier, and good attack. Knock off pretty much makes it impossible to stall it out, and it can obliterate the effectiveness of some scarfed 'checks'. Gligar can easily set up a sub on many physical attackers and proceed to blow holes through an entire team. To be even remotely safe from Gligar you need at least two mons that can OHKO it, and you need to make sure it has a hard time setting up. Pretty much the only way I've seen of handling it 100% is to run 3/6 water/ice attacker, or 3/6 bird attackers.

    Gligar carries strengths as both a defensive and offensive mon. It can reach 16 special defense on a neutral nature which gives an eviolite boosted 24, a stat considered exceptional by anything in LC. Its 19 speed gives it a shot at taking out Missy or setting up a sub on the burn, steel's loss of resistance to dark kills its old counter in Bronzor, and Knock Off's buff gives it a great coverage move that can hit at a great amount power. Gligar is broken in the LC meta. It has no true checks, it can set up with ease and OHKO or 2HKO practically the entire tier at +2, and it reaches an elite speed tier that lets it have a chance to out-speed the entire tier bar Yanma, Elekid, and Voltorb.

    Yanma is really the only thing that can stand a chance against it when behind a sub with air slash breaking the sub and a faster Hypnosis putting it to sleep. Gligar is without a doubt broken and should be banned from XY LC.
     
  10. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    maybe its because i run 3 flying types (one being yanma) but i don't find gligar to be that threatening at all since he lost flying gem. proper prediction makes him easy to play around but if people start playing him more intelligently and abusing knock off he becomes a much bigger threat. also more people should play him like mienfoo. knock off u turn roost and equake seems like it could be a good set. any special scarfer can usually kill it. when played along side chinchou it becomes slightly more challenging.

    i would want to say don't ban but you guys all seem pretty set on banning and i don't wanna rock the boat :P. but ummm I'm rocking it. don't ban it. (don't hate me)
     
  11. Dasdardly

    Dasdardly Uknown Bird

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    Everyone has stressed Gligars selling points so I'll try to be different for a second.
    Gligar has a fair few checks and can be revenged by most scarfed mons with an ice attack, so it's not like there's nothing to stop him. We've got:
    *Vullaby- loses to immunity, also loses in a last-Mon situation
    *Murkrow- could lose to sub/oran, but perishtrap is there.
    *Gligar- loses to SD Aqua Tail
    *Wingull- loses to sub/oran
    *Shroomish- loses if it gets knocked off, also to sub/oran
    That's all the checks I like, but there's other stuff like scarf Missy/Krow with Icy Wind, scarf Timburr/Mankey/Machop, Balloon Elekid, and Scarf Gothita. Though most of those are for revenging.
    Overall, Gligar is manageable in a HO environment like LC (stop trying to make stall happen, it's not going to happen) with most decisions being kill or be killed. It's a very powerful mon with a multitude of offensive and support/utility options and should be strongly considered when teambuilding.
     
  12. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    I found something that can actually check a Gligar behind a sub in Seel. If Seel has a choice scarf with 14 speed, it out speeds Gligar, and can KO Gligar with icicle spear from behind a sub. (236+ Atk Seel Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite (custom): 24-36 (104.34 - 156.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO) 3 hits can KO. Aside from this I can't find anything else worth using that stands a chance against a subbed up Gligar. Seel/Shellder are the only legitimate checks I have found so far as they can always switch in to an un-boosted Gligar from full and tank a hit. (236+ Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Seel: 16-19 (69.56 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)

    Shelder does the same thing, except slightly better. A smash set can work if it came in safely, but jolly scarf shellder can check Gligar even better with skill link.236+ Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Shellder: 12-15 (60 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  13. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Few if any people are trying to make stall work. However Balance in LC is entirely possible, and if Gligar mercilessly picks that apart without it using some odd scarfer like Shellder or whatever the fuck Wingull is, and then still having a chance to lose that is a big problem indeed. Also for the record Foul Play Vullaby probably picks apart SD Gligar pretty effectively regardless of situation. But I'm not sure if it could switch in on Rocks and while Gligar SDs or Knock Offs and still tank.
    +2 252 Atk (custom) Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252 Atk (custom) Stone Edge vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 34-40 (136 - 160%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk (custom) Stone Edge vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Ok it can take on non-Stone Edge Gligar p effectively. Loses to Bulky Gligar in terms of it losing its Eviolite and being setup fodder for Rocks/whatever support Gligar wants to use.
     
  14. Rihanna

    Rihanna Sex in the air

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    I really hope this is a joke. If you count "scarf mon with Ice move" as a gligar check, we might as well add feebas to that glorious list. I'm also not sure how a Pokemon that's hit super effectively by Gligar's STABs and can't do much in return counts as a check (shroomish). It's one thing to play devil's advocate, but this is plain ridiculous. It's not like the rest of your list could do much to swords dance gligar anyways aside from nabbing some chip damage. I'm wondering if you even play little cup based on this...

    Honestly, Gligar is a ridiculous Pokemon in general, and if this is the counter-argument towards keeping it... well... You have to pack two healthy checks each game to beat it, and even then they can still fall to the proper move. Each time it gets a free switch-in, gligar will kill something unless you have the prediction of a god. Its stats are just so perfect, between its high attack, speed, and defenses. There's no pokemon in little cup aside from Meditite (which is just as broken), that has that complete bundle package. Gligar is just way too powerful and centralizing for LC, ban.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  15. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    This post was uncalled for. Wingull is considered a shaky check because it speed ties and can OHKO Gligar, but is also 2HKOd by an un-boosted Gligar. Shroomish can sleep it and tank boosted hits from the most common Knock Off set. It is weak to flying STAB, but is still considered a shaky check. In my experience, one Gligar check will work fine, the problem is that the checks aren't particularly good outside of Scarf Shellder (too underrated). Gligar is perfectly manageable, if you run a scarf icicle spear user as a revenger (only Shelder has proven to have enough defense to tank the Knock Off + Equake in my experience). That is the only way I've found to ensure that Gligar can't sweep a team. Scarf Shelder will always beat Gligar from full even if it goes for the Knock Off on the switch. I suppose Vullaby works as well on non Stone Edge Gligar, but I have yet to test it.

    Gligar has plenty of 'checks' its just that all its checks are very unreliable and worthless outside of attempting to stop a Gligar. It can be stopped easily, even if it got a safe switch in, but the number of things that can stop it are so small. Gligar remains the most broken thing in the tier as there are no safe switch ins at +2 and only a handful of Pokémon can even revenge it. It, like all other set-up sweepers, can be checked without setting up, but unlike most others, it has virtually none after one turn. It isn't so much the raw stats that break Gligar, but the move pool imo.

    tldr: Don't insult people, Gligar is more broken b/c of moves than stats, very few checks, still broken need ban
     
  16. Rihanna

    Rihanna Sex in the air

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    It's everything about gligar that makes it broken, but the most defining factor is the stats. You can't tell me that just that the movepool is more significant. I mean cut gligar's stats in half and it'll be just a mediocre threat for the most part. See other pokemon with good movepools but bad stats: igglybuff, most normal types, etc. Now compare this to Pokemon that have great stats but a bad movepool: .... And btw, I wasn't insulting, I was just pointing out the ridiculous assertions made in that post. Honestly though, if we're arguing on what factor makes gligar more broken vs whether or not it actually is, well... that really says a lot about gligar as a pokemon and shows that in some form, the community has (for the most part) concluded that gligar is broken. We just can't agree on what part of it is more broken than the other, lol.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  17. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Well, i assume we are all aware of gligar's stats. Great speed which is top tier, cleanly outsped by a total of three pokemon, all of which it screws over and dont want to switch into it(except maybe ice punch or hp ice elekid, it screws over gligar) and the rest can only hope to speed tie. Good physical bulk means it can laugh off attempts to priority kill it for the most part, bar ice shard, but thats rare and nothing that uses it can switch in all too safely. Good attack means it is capable of sweeping, too.

    Also, with the buff to knock off, making it an actual attack, and the steel nerf, many of gligars 'counters' such as bronzor from the last generation are even more screwed over this generation. Not to mention gligar can simply switch in and lure its checks for a knock off then switch out and sweep later when they are crippled and have no hope of tanking an attack.

    The defensive sets... meh... they are good i guess? havent seen them, but things are rarely banned for being too bulky. I'd say its ban worthiness lies in its offensive potential. I'd say BAN

    It only has checks, not that reliable ones at that. Scarfed pokemon cant switch in (so you end up sacking something each time gligar goes in? what if they switch out and come back in later? you have to sack something else, rinse, repeated and they just killed at least half your team. Defensive checks no longer do their job after gligar uses knock off). Scarfed shelder? what if they know its scarfed (which they will after a few battles) and switch out to something that can take the hit and wait untill shelder is out or crippled before they send out gligar? I havent been swepted by gligar in my more recent battles, but that required playing extremely carefully and making sure gligar had no chance to set up. Gligar is better than ever this generation, and it was banned before, ban it again.
     
  18. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    You might think Gligar got nerfed hard by banning the Flying Gem, but actually that's not true. It can still use Stone Edge for EdgeQuake, which smashes everything not named Bronzor or Baltoy at +2.

    I stand by my point that Gligar does too much too well. Defensively, it can beat pretty much any wall with its great speed, reliable recovery and the now viable Knock Off. Thanks to Immunity, you can't even cripple it with Toxic. Offensively, after a Swords Dance it can smash pretty much everything - even physically defensive Slowpoke and Shrromish are cleanly 2HKOd after Rocks.
    +2 252 Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 16-19 (57.14 - 67.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252 Atk (custom) Stone Edge vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Shroomish: 11-13 (44 - 52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Yeah Gligar needs to go.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  19. Dasdardly

    Dasdardly Uknown Bird

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    [​IMG]
    I'm pro-ban as well, I just wanted to satire how shaky most of Gligar's checks are and stress how he turns the meta into a rather one-dimensional kill4kill kind of game. I got a few more people to post so it kinda worked I guess hehe. But you guys are mean and you picked on Wingull (WHO HAPPENS TO BE AWESOME, HATERS).
    Oh and he can be revenged pretty easily but :switching:. Tbh, even with a high level of play it's hard not to lose a mon to Gligar and it really sucks :[.
     
  20. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I have used Wingull a few times (Rain Dance, Scald, Hurricane, HP Grass) and I was pleasantly surprised by how well it did. That said though, it isn't very popular and bringing up Pokémon or move sets that are unpopular doesn't go down well (as I found out to my cost bringing up offensive Celebi). That said though, Wingull is shredded by Stone Edge and speed ties with Gligar. It checks defensive Gligar nicely, but offensive will usually win.
     
  21. 2thug4u

    2thug4u im so bad at this game

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    What can be said about Gligar that hasn't already been said? It has a great base 105 defense and a usable base 65 defense, and it's pretty fast at base 85 speed. Whether or not it's offensive or defensive, it's still a pain in the neck to handle. Now that with the new gen, Steel type doesn't resist dark type anymore, Knock Off can destroy Bronzor, and can cripple eviolite users. It's just too strong, it has amazing defenses with eviolite, and can still hit very hard with a Swords Dance set.

    Pro-Ban.
     
  22. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    many pokemon that can switch in on a standard set and do serious damage to gligar:

    air balloon elekid is very underrated and makes a great switch in.
    yanma handles it.
    shellder.
    seel.
    snover(bad if it has flying move)
    mukrow(shaky)
    item less fletching ( can't do much damage but its a solid amount )
    staryu has a 50/50 shot as do many other 19 speed mons

    i personally find yanma to be much much bigger threat than gligar.
     
  23. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    0 Atk (custom) Stomp vs. 0 HP / 160 Def Seel: 5-7 (21.73 - 30.43%) -- possible 4HKO (Knock Off when it hits off Evio)
    0 Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 160 Def Seel: 12-15 (52.17 - 65.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (EQ vs Seel)

    0 Atk (custom) Stomp vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Elekid: 10-12 (52.63 - 63.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Knock Off removing the Balloon, with the power boost)

    0 Atk (custom) Stomp vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Shellder: 6-8 (30 - 40%) -- 91.43% chance to 3HKO (Knock Off removing a scarf)
    0 Atk (custom) Stomp vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Shellder: 5-6 (25 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (Knock Off removing Eviolite)
    0 Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Shellder: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 68.36% chance to 2HKO

    0 Atk (custom) Stomp vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Snover: 6-8 (26.08 - 34.78%) -- 2.51% chance to 3HKO (Knock Off removing Evio)
    0 Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Snover: 6-8 (26.08 - 34.78%) -- 1.56% chance to 3HKO
    0 Atk (custom) Stomp vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snover: 9-11 (40.9 - 50%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO (Knock Off Removing Scarf)
    0 Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snover: 7-9 (31.81 - 40.9%) -- 96.41% chance to 3HKO

    None of these make legit checks. They all suffer hugely from Kock Off, Snover can live barely even if it comes in on Rocks, Scarf Shellder gets a chance to live (slim with Rocks) while Evio has a small chance to die with rocks, Elekid can come in and take that big hit, it might inflict it with Static I guess? But Gligar has severely dented your "check", removed its item, and Elekid is very weak with no LO, and it can run away and force another shitty situation when it comes in again. Seel can die with rocks, but most of the time won't.

    Let us not forget that that is all 0 Attack Gligar
     
  24. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    all the ones listed can do massive damage with ice shard or have a chance to outspeed before a 2nd hit. also prediction obviously plays a factor in beating a pokemon as it does any pokemon. obviously its hard to switch into but there are pokemon like that in every tier. for example nearly nothing can safely switch in on a mixed salamance but its still easily played around with prediction and good switching.
     
  25. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    MixMence doesn't fuck over every potential Switch-In with one move alone. All Gligar has to do is Knock Off and it's crippled a Pokémon to a respectable degree, plus Dark-type doesn't have many resistances anymore, just fighters and Murkrow basically (Darks aren't common outside Murkrow and the occasional Houndour).

    236+ Atk Life Orb Seel Ice Shard vs. 236 HP / 156 Def Eviolite (custom): 10-16 (38.46 - 61.53%) -- 12.11% chance to 2HKO
    104 Atk Snover Ice Shard vs. 236 HP / 156 Def Eviolite (custom): 12-16 (46.15 - 61.53%) -- 12.11% chance to 2HKO
    156 Atk Shellder Ice Shard vs. 236 HP / 156 Def Eviolite (custom): 8-12 (30.76 - 46.15%) -- 61.55% chance to 3HKO
    If your check has to force a speed tie and has nothing to show for it if it loses (versus offensive sets, they just lose their item vs defensive ones, they do force it out), Your check is /very/ shaky. Eviolite Staryu's Scald doesn't OHKO defensive with rocks with a 69% tops roll, and LO Staryu has a chance to be OHKO'd by EQ with rocks from an offensive set, Hydro Pump will KO "75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock". (100% regardless with LO, well 80%). Yanma running HP Ice is indeed a decent stop if it comes in on EQ or a Roost or something similar, and packs HP Ice or has its sleep in tact.

    I do understand that Gligar doesn't get 2 EV spreads, but your checks can be entirely fucked over simply because that Gligar has Attack investment, I think that's a /very/ risky business.
     
  26. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    well maybe the problem is the move then? is knock off not just as if not more broken on mienfoo?
     
  27. Rihanna

    Rihanna Sex in the air

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    No. Knock off is nothing like moody where it's broken on everything. I kinda doubt that knock off is breaking something like Ledyba.
     
  28. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    You can't argue however that Knock Off plays a big factor on why Gligar is broken. Since everything depends on eviolite for defense (I guess), anything remotely viable with knock off can be annoying for the other team to face. I really don't care whether Gligar stays or not, just an opinion.
     
  29. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I say we ban knock off instead of banning the pokemon that's obviously causing the problem!
     
  30. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying ban knock off, sorry if my post made it seem that way. I just want to say that knock off is pretty damn annoying move especially since the buff it got gen 6. Also most of the thread has been talking about Knock Off Gligar and the move in general. Without Knock Off you can compare Gligar to another regular threat that is perfectly manageable.

    Gligar has it however, and it's coverage is pretty good and along with Sword Dance it's pretty damn good. Ban Gligar
     
  31. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    i don't really care if you ban gligar as its on neither of my two teams; I'm just having trouble seeing why everybody is having so much trouble with it. O.o. banning knock off is definitely not feasible, but i predict after this ban people will start to see how amazing knock off mienfoo is this gen.
     
  32. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Not a Cop, the checks you listed are very risky, and yanma doesnt OHKO, no where close. Not to mention Aerial Ace OHKOs in return. Seel and Shelder get screwed over by knock off on the switch and are 2HKOed by earthquake, meaning if gligar switches out to come back in later, those checks cant switch in, so you'll be stuck sacking something each time gligar switches in.

    Murkrow? It gets KOed pretty easily, and, yeah, gligar walls that right back. Fletchling is on the same boat.

    Snover doesn't want to switch into knock off or Aerial Ace, hell, even EQ will be doing a number.

    Staryu, as you said is 50/50, which is horrid odds, that's not a check.
     
  33. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    yanma doesn't need to ohko as 78% of the time gligar will be passing out. aerial ace seems kinda inferior on any set imo. and specially based mukrow can almost always beat gligar. maybe I'm just having an easy time against it with both my teams because one abuses rain and the other maybe is helped by special mukrow i guess.... idk. maybe ill make a third team and see if he causes problems
     
  34. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Hi; due to its ability to pick apart many types of teams and threaten the majority of Pokémon under its speed tier with annihilation, or at least loss of item, combined with its bulk and wide movepool, Gligar will be banned from XY LC.
     
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